Dwarven vs Orcish Smithing - WTF Question

[SeaDog]

Okay, so, if you look at the skill tree for Smithing, up the right side from Steel is Dwarven (30 skill required) and then Orcish (50 skill required). So, in other words, Dwarven requires less skill to properly Smith than Orcish.

What's your point, SeaDog?

Hold on, I'm gettin' there.

Anyways, after checking the UESP Wiki page and armor/damage values in the game, it has come to my attention that Dwarven weapons are in fact better than Orcish. But Orcish armor is better than Dwarven. What the flax? And to compound the problem, steel plate is somehow better than Dwarven armor. Are you flippin' serious? If I was a dwarf, I'd be pissed. (Speaking of which...why are there no dwarves in the game? Nevermind that. Back to the point.)

So, basically, if you're an "armorer" you can go up the right side of the tree without any worries. Everything progresses in a nice, proper linear fashion in line with the quality of the metal in question.

But if you're more of a "weaponsmith" then you literally have to take a step back to get to Ebony later on. Dwarven weapons are superior to Orcish, so to get to Ebony you have to put a perk point in something you don't really need. Or have at least surpassed the need for.

Why couldn't they just change the base characteristics of Dwarven in both weapons AND armor to be slightly inferior to Orcish (or the other way around), and then set the skill tree properly. And as far as the armor leveling goes, what's this crap about "steel plate" being better than Dwarven?

Here's the links. It's under "Leveled List Info".

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Weapons (Dwarven is better)

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Armor (Orcish is better)

Thoughts? Am I crazy? Or is this a non-issue?

 

[Deadhand]

Non-issue. Why wouldn't a race who focused on weapons make them better? Why wouldn't a race who focused on armor make them better? I'm not saying the Dwemer or Orsimer did this, but they could have. And to one of your side notes; the Dwemer (or "dwarves") aren't in the game because they are long since extinct (ish...). That is why all the Dwemer ruins are well, ruins.

 

[Onyx]

I think the Smith tree is more focused on Armor smithing than Weapon smithing, as I think Glass weps are better than dwarven/orcish (not sure though) and that is Light Armor. Also having the steel plate as a light armor perk seems...odd.

 

[Abuse]

Speaking of smithing, got a quick question:


Do I need to spec into that Plate armor perk to make Dragon Plate? Or does it just come when you manage to get the dragon smithing perk!?

 

[brandon]

Speaking of smithing, got a quick question:


Do I need to spec into that Plate armor perk to make Dragon Plate? Or does it just come when you manage to get the dragon smithing perk!?

when i got the dragon perk it unlocked the dragonscale(light) and dragonplate(heavy)
but i dont understand dont you have to spend the point to advance to the next rank? if not then i should be able to use deadric and ebony but i cant.

 

[Migaluch]

Speaking of smithing, got a quick question:


Do I need to spec into that Plate armor perk to make Dragon Plate? Or does it just come when you manage to get the dragon smithing perk!?

Haha no, you don't need that Plate armor perk to craft Dragonplate armor, IIRC. That perk only applies to STEEL plate armor, which is basically slightly heavier Orcish Armor.

 

[Migaluch]

when i got the dragon perk it unlocked the dragonscale(light) and dragonplate(heavy)
but i dont understand dont you have to spend the point to advance to the next rank? if not then i should be able to use deadric and ebony but i cant.

Are you saying that you went up the left side of the Smithing tree and can't unlock Daedric and Ebony after getting to Dragon? If so, I can tell you that although the tree is circular, it doesn't act that way, so you can't spend points through Dragon.

For example, you can't go Glass --> Dragon --> Daedric.

 

[brandon]

Are you saying that you went up the left side of the Smithing tree and can't unlock Daedric and Ebony after getting to Dragon? If so, I can tell you that although the tree is circular, it doesn't act that way, so you can't spend points through Dragon.

For example, you can't go Glass --> Dragon --> Daedric.

no it wont let me unlock deadric right now it made me go dwarven, ork, and now have to wait till a lvl up to unlock ebony.

 

[Migaluch]

Anyways, so responding to the OP, yeah, I noticed that too, and it doesn't seem right. ATM i'm rocking a Dwarven Bow with a set of Orcish armor, and when I tried to craft an Orcish Bow I found that it was weaker. I don't know why the developers decide to do this, perhaps it has something to do with lore, but it looks like you need to choose Dwarven weapons for power, with Orcish armor for protection.

Oh, and there's no Dwarves in this game because the last one died by the end of Morrowind, and by then the whole race was gone.

 

[brandon]

Anyways, so responding to the OP, yeah, I noticed that too, and it doesn't seem right. ATM i'm rocking a Dwarven Bow with a set of Orcish armor, and when I tried to craft an Orcish Bow I found that it was weaker. I don't know why the developers decide to do this, perhaps it has something to do with lore, but it looks like you need to choose Dwarven weapons for power, with Orcish armor for protection.

Oh, and there's no Dwarves in this game because the last one died by the end of Morrowind, and by then the whole race was gone.

my weapons are glass i did have an ork sword at one time bc it looked cool but i traded it out for glass. until i get the perk my glass weapons are stronger then the ebony ive found bc i cant upgrade the ebony.

 

[SaveVsBedWet]

I was somewhat dismayed to find an Elven mace the other day that dealt almost as much damage by itself as my Orcish mace does with a frost damage enchantment on it. I went the Orcish path with my Smithing and thought Elven was pointless since I was already up to Orc. That was disconcerting. Good thing I decided to pick it up for no other reason than to have a weapon to pound on wolves and bandits with without using up charges, huh?

Now my Orcish heavy armor is a different story. Of course, that's in a chest at my house while I tool around in my nifty Storm Shadow Edition Nightingale Armor and take added chances with my life. But like Williams said, when failure (nee Horrible Death) comes, I won't even notice it.

Han : "Oh? And how's that?"

Cause I'll be too busy lookin gooood.

 

[Gra'Vok]

I'm going to give two detailed perspectives on this

First Perspective:
I think the smithing is just fine the way it is, well almost. i think it should be flipped: aka Dwarven armor better and Orcish weapons better. But alas it is vise versa. In many games, dwarven metals and armor have to been proclaimed very strong and provide suitable protection. Their weapons would too, but I also think Orcish weaponry has a cutting edge that typically jagged and made for more than just killing but to add pain to your death. Plus many orcish weapons, such as in LOTR, have weighted tips on their swords, adding momentum to swing. Despite this, Skyrim was made with balance in mind. Some people like to role characters all the way down to their native aspects. An Orc in full orcish armor and weapons is powerful, expecially with added Berserk. You can check out racial aspects of the orc race here. With berserk adding doubel damage to the weapon and having high armor value, the orc is nearly unstoppable. If Orcish weapons were better than Dwarven, they be even so more terrifying. But I believe they weakened their weapons to try and "reduce" the berserk damage of a fully implimented orc character rolling on a full set of orcish armor and weapons. I actually think it would be more balanced if their weapon was stronger and their armor weaker but this is not so.

Second Perspective:
As with smithing, someone said this above but I will not take time to quote it, said that smithing is concentrated on armor. This is COMPLETELY TRUE. In fact, idk why anyone would put perks into smithing just for weapons. That is utterly wasteful, if not ridiculous! However, Steel and Dragon are the tips of the "circle" meaning you cannot go up the right side from daedric to dragon and expect to get glass next. You must complete the "Light Armor" side to get to glass and go up the "Heavy Armor" side to get to daedric. With this said, I hope to see no more confusion about the so called "circle" the anvil seems to make. Now backing up for second, I said being a "weaponsmith" is totally wasteful and I still stick to this idea. But here is the drawing line for those wishing to be solely a weaponsmith. Most people who choose to be a weaponsmith are actually specialized in Light Armors. However, if you want the best weapons (Ebony and Daedric; whicha re both better than Glass), you'll have to sacrifice going up the "Light Armors" side for armor and go up the "Heavy Armors" To get the better weapons earlier and eventually get the best weapons from Ebony and on.

 

[Gra'Vok]

Why couldn't they just change the base characteristics of Dwarven in both weapons AND armor to be slightly inferior to Orcish (or the other way around), and then set the skill tree properly. And as far as the armor leveling goes, what's this crap about "steel plate" being better than Dwarven?

This is easily answered and i'll show you with this link here on smithing.
The reason "Steel Plate" is better is because it is listed under "Advanced Armors" on the "Light Armors" or left side of the smithing perks. Remember that advanced armors require 50 pts in smithing while Dwarven only require 30 pts just like its counter-part, Elven. Let me try and make a short list in order of how both the light and heavy armor sides of the smithing anvil actually work:

*Note that "H" means its on the Heavy side and "L" is for Light side of the armor spectrums.

[H]Steel (No Req skill) ---> NOT plated!!!
[L]Elven and [H]Dwarven (30 skill)
[HL]Advanced and [H]Orcish (50 skill) ---> Advanced, being your "Steel Plate" and "Scaled" armor.
[L]Glass (70 skill)
[H]Ebony (80 Skill)
[H]Daedric (90 Skill)
[HL]Dragon (100 Skill)

Note that Ebony weapons and onward should be much more lethal based on skill required to make it. While Dragon should have both heavy and light armored pieces, for a weaponsmith, the Heavy side of the smithing spectrum can offer more. The reason for this is there is NO dragon-smithed weapon available and Ebony and Daedric are superior weapons to Glass.

EDIT: Changed "[L]Advanced" to "[HL]Advanced" for the Heavy Plate and Light Scaled differences.

 

[Elvus]

Just to confuse you guys even more,I have a (flawless) skyforge steel battle axe that deals more damage than my flawless dwarven battle axe,Lol. Very confusing.