Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

He had no way to fight back. and without Ulfric, none of what is in-game would be possible. It is one thing to blame the Empire WHILE noting the Stormcloak leader's responsibility, but it is another to exclusively blame the Empire.

Take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt, including the Civil War leaders.

I'm not exclusively blaming the Empire. Like I said why didn't he even try to negotiate the terms of the treaty? He just signed it. They were at a Stalemate They could have done something.

At the time, I bet he was weary from war and everyone was willing to pay the price at the time. The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."

him being weary of war doesn't make a difference, and obviously there were more people griping about it. Ever heard of a little place to the west called Hammerfell.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I'm not exclusively blaming the Empire. Like I said why didn't he even try to negotiate the terms of the treaty? He just signed it. They were at a Stalemate They could have done something.

At the time, I bet he was weary from war and everyone was willing to pay the price at the time. The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."

him being weary of war doesn't make a difference, and obviously there were more people griping about it. Ever heard of a little place to the west called Hammerfell.

They just wanted the land they LOST stolen from the Thalmor. They were let go so they can take it back for themselves. Does not sound like anything I care about, as what happened in Hammerfell does not matter to Skyrim except as a convenient excuse for Stormcloaks to BS and sound intelligent.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

In his mind, which sounds of BS to me. In the mind of the Empire, he was a criminal who broke the law. Betrayal is subjective and thus BS.

It's betrayal because The Empire stated that they would allow Talos Worship back into the city and then put him in chains when the Dominion showed up. That sounds like betrayal to me. He fought for The Empire, watched many of his comrades die, only to be Imprisoned by them for violating the White Gold Concordant. THAT sounds like BS to me.

And Ulfric's side ALSO sounds like BS to me. I know that there was a deal made, but I also know that the people who made the deal had nothing to do with the Empire at that time, so Ulfric basically forced the Empire into agreeing with him.

Because he and the Jarl of the Reach wanted free Talos worship in at least a PART of Skyrim. They just wanted one safe haven where they could openly worship but that was unacceptable. "It violates the WGC" "CRUCIFY HIM!!! HANG HIM FROM CHAINS!!!"

 

[DrunkenMage]

I'm not exclusively blaming the Empire. Like I said why didn't he even try to negotiate the terms of the treaty? He just signed it. They were at a Stalemate They could have done something.

Because Titus II has no authority regarding treaties. The Emperor only has the power of Veto in Imperial politics. Cyrodiil was in chaos, everything destroyed and for years they had trouble restoring order. The Empire didn't have the luxury to sit around debating the terms.

The Thalmor could have just kept taking pot shots at the Empire, border skirmishes for the next hundred years. Things similar to what they did in the Second Era, I believe.

And we're not even sure if the Aldmeri Dominion still had a presence in Cyrodiil after Red Ring. The Empire destroyed their main army, but there could have been smaller forces still around due to the mention of a secondary army entering Cyrodiil.

If they kept the Legions engaged and on alert constantly, Cyrodiil would have collapsed. Something similar to Skyrim's Civil War, you constantly hear about how bandits are raiding farms, roads are too dangerous. Even after the treaty was signed, Wayrest in High Rock fell to corsairs, Bravil in Cyrodiil erupted into violence between two Skooma traffic gangs.

If the Empire couldn't properly protect itself during peace for several years, how would they continue in a state of war for another year or two. It was the Empire who went to the Thalmor for peace, generally when someone comes to you for peace. Are you going to make it in their favor or yours?

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

It's betrayal because The Empire stated that they would allow Talos Worship back into the city and then put him in chains when the Dominion showed up. That sounds like betrayal to me. He fought for The Empire, watched many of his comrades die, only to be Imprisoned by them for violating the White Gold Concordant. THAT sounds like BS to me.

And Ulfric's side ALSO sounds like BS to me. I know that there was a deal made, but I also know that the people who made the deal had nothing to do with the Empire at that time, so Ulfric basically forced the Empire into agreeing with him.

Because he and the Jarl of the Reach wanted free Talos worship in at least a PART of Skyrim. They just wanted one safe haven where they could openly worship but that was unacceptable. "It violates the WGC" "CRUCIFY HIM!!! HANG HIM FROM CHAINS!!!"

And they would have gotten away with it if the Thalmor did not catch on and force a "betrayal"in Ulfric's mind forcing him to start a civil war because of his actions.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

At the time, I bet he was weary from war and everyone was willing to pay the price at the time. The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."

him being weary of war doesn't make a difference, and obviously there were more people griping about it. Ever heard of a little place to the west called Hammerfell.

They just wanted the land they LOST stolen from the Thalmor. They were let go so they can take it back for themselves. Does not sound like anything I care about, as what happened in Hammerfell does not matter to Skyrim except as a convenient excuse for Stormcloaks to BS and sound intelligent.

Not really. YOU stated "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" which is clearly wrong because Hammerfell was pissed off and now harbors a bitter resentment to the Empire because of it.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

And Ulfric's side ALSO sounds like BS to me. I know that there was a deal made, but I also know that the people who made the deal had nothing to do with the Empire at that time, so Ulfric basically forced the Empire into agreeing with him.

Because he and the Jarl of the Reach wanted free Talos worship in at least a PART of Skyrim. They just wanted one safe haven where they could openly worship but that was unacceptable. "It violates the WGC" "CRUCIFY HIM!!! HANG HIM FROM CHAINS!!!"

And they would have gotten away with it if the Thalmor did not catch on and force a "betrayal"in Ulfric's mind forcing him to start a civil war because of his actions.

Yes, but in the end the Empire still put him away.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

him being weary of war doesn't make a difference, and obviously there were more people griping about it. Ever heard of a little place to the west called Hammerfell.

They just wanted the land they LOST stolen from the Thalmor. They were let go so they can take it back for themselves. Does not sound like anything I care about, as what happened in Hammerfell does not matter to Skyrim except as a convenient excuse for Stormcloaks to BS and sound intelligent.

Not really. YOU stated "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" which is clearly wrong because Hammerfell was pissed off and now harbors a bitter resentment to the Empire because of it.

Still matters not. No one in Skyrim seems to care about them, so why should they be used in any argument except to make the Stormcloaks seem intelligent. Sounds like stormcloak BS to me.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I'm not exclusively blaming the Empire. Like I said why didn't he even try to negotiate the terms of the treaty? He just signed it. They were at a Stalemate They could have done something.

Because Titus II has no authority regarding treaties. The Emperor only has the power of Veto in Imperial politics. Cyrodiil was in chaos, everything destroyed and for years they had trouble restoring order. The Empire didn't have the luxury to sit around debating the terms.

The Thalmor could have just kept taking pot shots at the Empire, border skirmishes for the next hundred years. Things similar to what they did in the Second Era, I believe.

And we're not even sure if the Aldmeri Dominion still had a presence in Cyrodiil after Red Ring. The Empire destroyed their main army, but there could have been smaller forces still around due to the mention of a secondary army entering Cyrodiil.

If they kept the Legions engaged and on alert constantly, Cyrodiil would have collapsed. Something similar to Skyrim's Civil War, you constantly hear about how bandits are raiding farms, roads are too dangerous. Even after the treaty was signed, Wayrest in High Rock fell to corsairs, Bravil in Cyrodiil erupted into violence between two Skooma traffic gangs.

If the Empire couldn't properly protect itself during peace for several years, how would they continue in a state of war for another year or two. It was the Empire who went to the Thalmor for peace, generally when someone comes to you for peace. Are you going to make it in their favor or yours?

The fact remains HE Signed the Treaty. And if I recall properly they were at a Stalemate so yeah they could have debated the terms.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Because he and the Jarl of the Reach wanted free Talos worship in at least a PART of Skyrim. They just wanted one safe haven where they could openly worship but that was unacceptable. "It violates the WGC" "CRUCIFY HIM!!! HANG HIM FROM CHAINS!!!"

And they would have gotten away with it if the Thalmor did not catch on and force a "betrayal"in Ulfric's mind forcing him to start a civil war because of his actions.

Yes but the Empire but in the end the Empire still put him away.

Ulfric made the empire "betray" him so he could use it to fuel a war. BS!

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

They just wanted the land they LOST stolen from the Thalmor. They were let go so they can take it back for themselves. Does not sound like anything I care about, as what happened in Hammerfell does not matter to Skyrim except as a convenient excuse for Stormcloaks to BS and sound intelligent.

Not really. YOU stated "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" which is clearly wrong because Hammerfell was pissed off and now harbors a bitter resentment to the Empire because of it.

Still matters not. No one in Skyrim seems to care about them, so why should they be used in any argument except to make the Stormcloaks seem intelligent. Sounds like stormcloak BS to me.

I'm not making up "Stormcloak BS" I was just that you were wrong.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Not really. YOU stated "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" which is clearly wrong because Hammerfell was pissed off and now harbors a bitter resentment to the Empire because of it.

Still matters not. No one in Skyrim seems to care about them, so why should they be used in any argument except to make the Stormcloaks seem intelligent. Sounds like stormcloak BS to me.

I'm not making up "Stormcloak BS" I was just that you were wrong.

Wrong about what? That people overreact to nothing? you certainly proved that BS to be true BS.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Still matters not. No one in Skyrim seems to care about them, so why should they be used in any argument except to make the Stormcloaks seem intelligent. Sounds like stormcloak BS to me.

I'm not making up "Stormcloak BS" I was just that you were wrong.

Wrong about what? That people overreact to nothing? you certainly proved that BS to be true BS.

No you were wrong about "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" Thats Wrong. Hammerfell was also mad about it.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I'm not making up "Stormcloak BS" I was just that you were wrong.

Wrong about what? That people overreact to nothing? you certainly proved that BS to be true BS.

No you were wrong about "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" Thats Wrong. Hammerfell was also mad about it.

I was talking about IN SKYRIM. The place that is actually important, not some province of morons who mean nothing to the conflict.

IF I have to write that in bolded bright-colored letters, you are probably not smart enough to understand.

 

[DrunkenMage]

The fact remains HE Signed the Treaty. And if I recall properly they were at a Stalemate so yeah they could have debated the terms.

They weren't at a stalemate. The Legions were too weak to continue fighting, the Aldmeri Dominion were entrenched in Southern Hammerfell and there could still have been Aldmeri forces lurking within Cyrodiil. What was there to debate, the Empire needed peace now, the Aldmeri were able to keep going for another five years before Hammerfell and the Dominion signed their own treaty. A very costly treaty since it devastated southern Hammerfell completely.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

The fact remains HE Signed the Treaty. And if I recall properly they were at a Stalemate so yeah they could have debated the terms.

They weren't at a stalemate. The Legions were too weak to continue fighting, the Aldmeri Dominion were entrenched in Southern Hammerfell and there could still have been Aldmeri forces lurking within Cyrodiil. What was there to debate, the Empire needed peace now, the Aldmeri were able to keep going for another five years before Hammerfell and the Dominion signed their own treaty. A very costly treaty since it devastated southern Hammerfell completely.

If they weren't at a Stalemate why would the Dominion even bother with a treaty? Why wouldn't The Dominion just wipe them out completely? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Wrong about what? That people overreact to nothing? you certainly proved that BS to be true BS.

No you were wrong about "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" Thats Wrong. Hammerfell was also mad about it.

I was talking about IN SKYRIM. The place that is actually important, not some province of morons who mean nothing to the conflict.

Also wrong Ulfric and Half of Skyrim seems to have a problem with it.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

No you were wrong about "The only ones griping about it were Ulfric and his band of "children of Skyrim."" Thats Wrong. Hammerfell was also mad about it.

I was talking about IN SKYRIM. The place that is actually important, not some province of morons who mean nothing to the conflict.

Also wrong Ulfric and Half of Skyrim seems to have a problem with it.

Half of skyrim are stormcloaks/stormcloak supporters. So not wrong

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I was talking about IN SKYRIM. The place that is actually important, not some province of morons who mean nothing to the conflict.

Also wrong Ulfric and Half of Skyrim seems to have a problem with it.

Half of skyrim are stormcloaks/stormcloak supporters. So not wrong

When I saw "his boys" my mind went strictly to Stormcloak Soldiers not supporters and soldiers.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Also wrong Ulfric and Half of Skyrim seems to have a problem with it.

Half of skyrim are stormcloaks/stormcloak supporters. So not wrong

When I saw "his boys" my mind went strictly to Stormcloak Soldiers not supporters and soldiers.

Those who support the stormcloaks ARE stormcloaks, but just do not fight.