Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Seanu Reaves]

I'm sorry what? The person you're looking for is Ambarys Rendar

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ambarys_Rendar

You mean the guy with no Imperial connection. Asides from living within the empire? The dude who only shares the same sentiments against Nords as you do for Dark Elves? The dude who is noted to have extreme views by his coworker...

I assume you aren't being an extreme RPer and mimicking the in-game ignorance that is apparent on both sides...

 

[DrunkenMage]

for fluff sakes "Straw Man" cool use that.Running your own business is fine if you wanted to be treated like pl*** the rest of your life.

So they're being mistreated because they able to own businesses. Right... So that farm owner you Stormcloaks were using before as an model example, is actually wrong by your own account. Since he owns a farm, thus his own business... He is the reason for their mistreatment because he's proud of his farm.

I love how Stormcloak supporters constantly contradict themselves. You cancel out each others arguments, it is amusing.

They certainly were and they would fall into the habit again if the Argonians didn't kick the piss out of them. You know what, They should be allowed in they certainly deserve it more than those 4.

No they weren't. The slave trade ended prior to the Oblivion Crisis. How would they fall into the habit again, where is your source? I find it ironic you ask why I defend slave owners, when Stormcloak Skyrim has slavery... So I should be asking why do you defend slave owners?

Welcome to Skyrim buddy and No they don't have to "enslave" themselves but they can bite their pride and do some work for the city. Oh, and yes Im aware the Nords are very prideful as well but this is their city not the Dunmer's. You'd think they knew that by now.

The Argonians all work for Nords, why aren't they being respected? By your own statement they need to work for Nords to earn respect, funny how it isn't working for the Argonians?

Ambarys Rendar not only a racist against Nords but an Imperial Officer as well. Malthyr Elenil is in the same boat as him whilst Aval Atheron make his complaints about the "Horrible Gray Quarter"

I'd be angry towards Nords too, especially after how I'm treated. An Imperial Officer now also?

You're using these people as examples of "Not pulling their weight" yet they work and own businesses... paying taxes.

The point is Ralof doesn't acknowledge you killing him by making a comment after words, so maybe what you see is a glitch or a potential scripting error? Skyrim is known for these sorts of issues.

Hadvar comments even if the Stormcloaks kill them or sometimes before they've died.

You mean the Reach is fighting the Forsworn. The city guards aren't considered to be part of the Imperial Legion.

No I don't mean the Reach, I mean the Legion. There are random encounters between legion and Forsworn attacking. There is also a couple of Legionnaires attacking an unmarked Forsworn camp and they even thank you if you help them.

I would expect that the Dunmers would assess the situation and perhaps wait until Ulfric is not preoccupied with the war. Free-Winter doesn't have an extra baggage hanging over his head when he becomes Jarl so of course he has extra time to deal with the Dunmer situation.

I would expect that Ulfric acts like the Jarl of Windhelm and listen to his citizens. The Dunmer are just asking that Ulfric looks at their situation. Ulfric isn't on the front lines, and he has enough time to go pray at the temple. He can find ten minutes to listen to their complaints.

Life does work that way. If someone isn't happy living at their current residency they have the choice and the freedom to move.

With barely any money? With Dragons and a war going on? Where are they going to go Raijin? How will they get there?

I don't know why the Imperial supporters on this thread keep insulting the Dunmers.... oh the poor little Dunmers from windhelm is so weak and so fragile that they can't survive out in the open free from the big bad Nord oppressors. Geeze and you call Ulfric a racist! The Imperials from this thread are something else.

What do you Imperials have against the Dumers? Seriously What do you have against them? Why do you insist of calling them weak? Unable to survive out in the wilds... unable to find a fort for themselves to call home. Do you believe that these Dunmers can't fight off a group of Bandits? Here we have DrunkenMage giving us statistics on just how many Dunmers are living in Windhelm.


Are you telling me that these Dunmers can't win in a fight against a group of bandits to claim possession of a fort? Again What do you have against the Dunmers so much that you down right insult their combat ability? Shame on you!

At least as a Stormcloak supporter I have good faith in the Dunmers in their combat ability to handle themselves, and their survival.

Just another day with the Imperials....

Just another day with the Stormcloaks...

 

[Vatonage]

So they're being mistreated because they able to own businesses. Right... So that farm owner you Stormcloaks were using before as an model example, is actually wrong by your own account. Since he owns a farm, thus his own business... He is the reason for their mistreatment because he's proud of his farm.

I love how Stormcloak supporters constantly contradict themselves. You cancel out each others arguments, it is amusing.



No they weren't. The slave trade ended prior to the Oblivion Crisis. How would they fall into the habit again, where is your source? I find it ironic you ask why I defend slave owners, when Stormcloak Skyrim has slavery... So I should be asking why do you defend slave owners?



The Argonians all work for Nords, why aren't they being respected? By your own statement they need to work for Nords to earn respect, funny how it isn't working for the Argonians?



I'd be angry towards Nords too, especially after how I'm treated. An Imperial Officer now also?

You're using these people as examples of "Not pulling their weight" yet they work and own businesses... paying taxes.



Hadvar comments even if the Stormcloaks kill them or sometimes before they've died.




No I don't mean the Reach, I mean the Legion. There are random encounters between legion and Forsworn attacking. There is also a couple of Legionnaires attacking an unmarked Forsworn camp and they even thank you if you help them.



I would expect that Ulfric acts like the Jarl of Windhelm and listen to his citizens. The Dunmer are just asking that Ulfric looks at their situation. Ulfric isn't on the front lines, and he has enough time to go pray at the temple. He can find ten minutes to listen to their complaints.



With barely any money? With Dragons and a war going on? Where are they going to go Raijin? How will they get there?

Just another day with the Stormcloaks...

I love how Imperials like to waste their time.

 

[DrunkenMage]

I love how Imperials like to waste their time.

I like the fact you're still here, yet don't post anything meaningful. You're becoming like Jeremius now. Hope you're proud.

You stay here to go through posts to like, post nothing relevant and talk about wasting time. Coming from you, that is just the punchline of some lame joke.

 

[Vatonage]

I like the fact you're still here, yet don't post anything meaningful. You're becoming like Jeremius now. Hope you're proud.

You do realize that you just went through my post, quoted it, removed the Stormcloak parts and then say Imperials waste their time. Yes... because you didn't just waste your time.

I am very proud. Proud to waste your time

 

[DrunkenMage]

I am very proud. Proud to waste your time

Oh so clever, do you want a gold star? I'm glad you go out of your way to involve yourself with me.

 

[Vatonage]

Oh so clever, do you want a gold star? I'm glad you go out of your way to involve yourself with me.

Clearly you have seen the folly of this whole, sorted debate?

Neither side will win because its far, far, far too grey a topic. Really, either side has an equal amount of advantages and disadvantages.

Even though I still support Stormcloaks, I've known by now that either is better than none. Skyrim just needs one banner, not two banners vying for control and ruining the land.

Hopefully someone else takes that away from this, too.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Clearly you have seen the folly of this whole, sorted debate?

Neither side will win because its far, far, far too grey a topic. Really, either side has an equal amount of advantages and disadvantages.

Even though I still support Stormcloaks, I've known by now that either is better than none. Skyrim just needs one banner, not two banners vying for control and ruining the land.

Hopefully someone else takes that away from this, too.

Of course, we all have. Yet still the debate endures, Raijin has been posting since page one. Others for several hundred pages.

The debate at it's core addresses two horrible things; Religious and Racial oppression.

That is what sparks the heated discussion, why people in these debates always end up very close to a simple flame war. This thread has seen it's fair share of those, from posts designed to just insult (We all most likely have several posts of just why we're assholes etc.) and you may notice posters in here have their fair share of red negative ratings from the good old fashion rating wars.

Everyone knows that neither side wins, but still they post, these threads pop up on the internet everywhere and it will go on forever. Why? Because of personal belief, you have to decide what is sacrificed.

Do you accept religious oppression in removing racial oppression? Do you accept racial oppression in removing religious oppression?

That is why people keep coming back, because they can't believe the other person would consider (Religious/Racial) the lesser and (Religious/Racial) should be saved. So both sides end up trying to defend their negative, while attacking the others negative.

Pointing out the debate is meaningless doesn't work, it'll continue for another 844 pages.

 

[Vatonage]

Of course, we all have. Yet still the debate endures, Raijin has been posting since page one. Others for several hundred pages.

The debate at it's core addresses two horrible things; Religious and Racial oppression.

That is what sparks the heated discussion, why people in these debates always end up very close to a simple flame war. This thread has seen it's fair share of those, from posts designed to just insult (We all most likely have several posts of just why we're assholes etc.) and you may notice posters in here have their fair share of red negative ratings from the good old fashion rating wars.

Everyone knows that neither side wins, but still they post, these threads pop up on the internet everywhere and it will go on forever. Why? Because of personal belief, you have to decide what is sacrificed.

Do you accept religious oppression in removing racial oppression? Do you accept racial oppression in removing religious oppression?

That is why people keep coming back, because they can't believe the other person would consider (Religious/Racial) the lesser and (Religious/Racial) should be saved. So both sides end up trying to defend their negative, while attacking the others negative.

Pointing out the debate is meaningless doesn't work, it'll continue for another 844 pages.

Hmm, good insight.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I'm sorry what? The person you're looking for is Ambarys Rendar

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ambarys_Rendar

You mean the guy with no Imperial connection. Asides from living within the empire? The dude who only shares the same sentiments against Nords as you do for Dark Elves? The dude who is noted to have extreme views by his coworker...

I assume you aren't being an extreme RPer and mimicking the in-game ignorance that is apparent on both sides...

He has Imperial Armor in his room and also an Imperial Flag. And I have no resentment for Dunmer, I just don't pity them.

 

[Jeremius]

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ambarys_Rendar

You mean the guy with no Imperial connection. Asides from living within the empire? The dude who only shares the same sentiments against Nords as you do for Dark Elves? The dude who is noted to have extreme views by his coworker...

I assume you aren't being an extreme RPer and mimicking the in-game ignorance that is apparent on both sides...

He has Imperial Armor in his room and also an Imperial Flag. And I have no resentment for Dunmer, I just don't pity them.

Honestly? He could have been an imperial soldier and retired, while still having a love for the Empire he served under. The armor and flag, at this point, serve no purpose other than for Stormcloaks to insult and disrespect the Dunmer more.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Honestly? He could have been an imperial soldier and retired, while still having a love for the Empire he served under. The armor and flag, at this point, serve no purpose other than for Stormcloaks to insult and disrespect the Dunmer more.

Could have? Are we supposed to debate off half baked theories? That is like saying all the Stormcloaks who were Imperial Veterans (The majority) Still love the empire they served under because they kept their old equipment.

And for you it only serves to make you angry. You know technically speaking, even if your cause is "just" you are still just traitors. But more importantly you are mad because he happens to have items. Asides from Loyalty to people who don't go out of their way to oppress him.

 

[Jeremius]

Could have? Are we supposed to debate off half baked theories? That is like saying all the Stormcloaks who were Imperial Veterans (The majority) Still love the empire they served under because they kept their old equipment.

And for you it only serves to make you angry. You know technically speaking, even if your cause is "just" you are still just traitors. But more importantly you are mad because he happens to have items. Asides from Loyalty to people who don't go out of their way to oppress him.

Does everyone feel the need to misquote me? He I said could have, as in it just a theory. If that is half-baked, then so is any other theory about him and that armor. All we know is that he has imperial armor in his house and has an imperial flag. That means nothing at all until it is looked at.

 

[DrunkenMage]

He has Imperial Armor in his room and also an Imperial Flag. And I have no resentment for Dunmer, I just don't pity them.

Imperial armor doesn't mean he is a Legion Officer. By that logic mercenaries of the EETC are Legion.

There is nothing to suggest he's a member of the Legion, for all we know that gear is just remnants of Imperial rule in Windhelm. The city did once have an Imperial garrison.

It also could have once belonged to Brunwulf Free-Winter when he served in the Legion during the Great War. The Dunmer do consider him a war hero, and greatly respect him.

Regardless of what possible speculation there could be, being a Legion Officer is the last. Why isn't he in contact with Tullius, why isn't he on the front lines? Legion soldiers aren't Imperial Agents, they don't do undercover work or spying as civilians.

He's a barkeep, not a commando.

 

[Seanu Reaves]

Could have? Are we supposed to debate off half baked theories? That is like saying all the Stormcloaks who were Imperial Veterans (The majority) Still love the empire they served under because they kept their old equipment.

And for you it only serves to make you angry. You know technically speaking, even if your cause is "just" you are still just traitors. But more importantly you are mad because he happens to have items. Asides from Loyalty to people who don't go out of their way to oppress him.

Does everyone feel the need to misquote me? He I said could have, as in it just a theory. If that is half-baked, then so is any other theory about him and that armor. All we know is that he has imperial armor in his house and has an imperial flag. That means nothing at all until it is looked at.

I directly quote you every time. Unless you forget your own words and then when you re read dont recognize them... You should slow down and read. You already have contradicted yourself. So please take a deep breath and remember your own words. Lest you dig yourself deeper.

 

[Jeremius]

Could have? Are we supposed to debate off half baked theories? That is like saying all the Stormcloaks who were Imperial Veterans (The majority) Still love the empire they served under because they kept their old equipment.

And for you it only serves to make you angry. You know technically speaking, even if your cause is "just" you are still just traitors. But more importantly you are mad because he happens to have items. Asides from Loyalty to people who don't go out of their way to oppress him.

Does everyone feel the need to misquote me? He I said could have, as in it just a theory. If that is half-baked, then so is any other theory about him and that armor. All we know is that he has imperial armor in his house and has an imperial flag. That means nothing at all until it is looked at.

I directly quote you every time. Unless you forget your own words and then when you re read dont recognize them... You should slow down and read. You already have contradicted yourself. So please take a deep breath and remember your own words. Lest you dig yourself deeper.

I did not say what you said I did in the quote. Re-read it. You put what I said as mikulas's words and the words you meant as mine. Re-read, learn to quote, or don't do it at all.

Also, what I said was a theory, just like anything else on the dunmer, that is said by anyone. IF that is half-baked, then anything else said about them is half-baked. What are we supposed to do, discuss what is there but not actually talk about it?

 

[Seanu Reaves]

You can use actual lore and in game fact. And yes I suppose I did see you as Black Blade sorry bout that gov'nor. But there is quite a bit of high assumption occurring. Plus you two are a lot Alik'r on my phone it seems hahaha.

But technically I also dont misquoted tou either. I directly quit and never dance around the point.

 

[Jeremius]

You can use actual lore and in game fact. And yes I suppose I did see you as Black Blade sorry bout that gov'nor. But there is quite a bit of high assumption occurring. Plus you two are a lot Alik'r on my phone it seems hahaha.

But technically I also dont misquoted tou either. I directly quit and never dance around the point.

What point? That it was a theory? I did not deny it. that it was half-baked? that is false, as there is no lore on the subject I was responding to.

It is in-game fact that he has the armor in his room, and it is in-game fact that he has a flag in his room as well. IF you are trying to say that unless we simply discuss what we have, then I am afraid that that is not going to happen. Everything is a theory based on what is there, lore-wise and in-game fact or not.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

He has Imperial Armor in his room and also an Imperial Flag. And I have no resentment for Dunmer, I just don't pity them.

Honestly? He could have been an imperial soldier and retired, while still having a love for the Empire he served under. The armor and flag, at this point, serve no purpose other than for Stormcloaks to insult and disrespect the Dunmer more.

Well, its clear he has motives against Ulfric, and no motive to fight in The Great War

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

He has Imperial Armor in his room and also an Imperial Flag. And I have no resentment for Dunmer, I just don't pity them.

Imperial armor doesn't mean he is a Legion Officer. By that logic mercenaries of the EETC are Legion.

There is nothing to suggest he's a member of the Legion, for all we know that gear is just remnants of Imperial rule in Windhelm. The city did once have an Imperial garrison.

It also could have once belonged to Brunwulf Free-Winter when he served in the Legion during the Great War. The Dunmer do consider him a war hero, and greatly respect him.

Regardless of what possible speculation there could be, being a Legion Officer is the last. Why isn't he in contact with Tullius, why isn't he on the front lines? Legion soldiers aren't Imperial Agents, they don't do undercover work or spying as civilians.

He's a barkeep, not a commando.

He clearly has motives against Ulfric but no reason to join the Empire in the Great War