Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
The Imperial Legate has left...
Save your breath, brother. They may return tomorrow.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
Save your breath, brother. They may return tomorrow.
UltraXPowerGuy
Member
Rebels all the way 
J
Jeremius
Guest
Legate and Mage show up whenever they want. The thread is usually dead until they get baited into a debate/argument with someone.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
How have they not run out of material?
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Damn you bitches have been busy.
They're not stopping his actions, which is the point I'm making. So either they accept them or ignore them either way it isn't good. He may not officially represent the Stormcloaks, but in his mind he does. He's acting on their behalf in the streets like a thug, made worse by the fact he has an ex Stormcloak soldier with him.
He wasn't investigating until you came along. He gave you authority to do their job, as a Steward he'll always be in service to the Jarl and he is supposed to do official work. But he says "Nothing official" he's more used for war conversation than Hold duties.
Does that mean Ulfric is corrupt because Free-Winter has power? He's an Imperial supporter and undermines Ulfric on the streets. By your definition that makes Ulfric corrupt... No it doesn't work like that Raijin.
The Silver-Bloods are powerful because they own the mine and use thugs to extort the shop owners into paying them. How is it greedy to have a powerful clan in your Hold? Every Jarl must be corrupt because there are powerful citizens in the Holds...
There is nothing that even shows Igmund is corrupt. The Silver-Bloods also can't support Ulfric financially until they become Jarl. The Forsworn also control many routes, so logically the unaffected roads would be Imperial controlled.
Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"
They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.
Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.
Let us recount. Ulfric is given the information... executes Tullius and orders the other Legionnaires hidden to be hunted down.
Ulfric killed Torygg, he knew damn well what the Empire's response would be. Killing the Emperor's vassal would always make the Legion step in, otherwise little Warlords may decide "Hey, he got away with it! Let's all try to kill some people and become rulers."
You can't risk upsetting a so called "Weak and Cowardly Empire" but you're going to take your petty army to the Aldmeri Dominion? Hahaha.
Tullius is right, Ulfric is willing to sacrifice thousands for his own selfish ambitions.
You call Tullius a warmonger, because what? The Legion stepped in to protect the thousands of citizens that want to remain part of the Empire?
What you fail to realize, is the Empire has to piss away resources for this petty war. Because if they don't, it can cause a domino effect.
"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire." - Ulfric
Remember that when you call the Empire weak.
"From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - Tullius
Remember this, when you say the Empire are puppets to the Thalmor.
'I have word of a new Imperial force assembling in the south, ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear.' - Stormcloak missive
Oh, and remember the first quote... Because Cyrodiil is coming.
They're not stopping his actions, which is the point I'm making. So either they accept them or ignore them either way it isn't good. He may not officially represent the Stormcloaks, but in his mind he does. He's acting on their behalf in the streets like a thug, made worse by the fact he has an ex Stormcloak soldier with him.
He wasn't investigating until you came along. He gave you authority to do their job, as a Steward he'll always be in service to the Jarl and he is supposed to do official work. But he says "Nothing official" he's more used for war conversation than Hold duties.
Does that mean Ulfric is corrupt because Free-Winter has power? He's an Imperial supporter and undermines Ulfric on the streets. By your definition that makes Ulfric corrupt... No it doesn't work like that Raijin.
The Silver-Bloods are powerful because they own the mine and use thugs to extort the shop owners into paying them. How is it greedy to have a powerful clan in your Hold? Every Jarl must be corrupt because there are powerful citizens in the Holds...
There is nothing that even shows Igmund is corrupt. The Silver-Bloods also can't support Ulfric financially until they become Jarl. The Forsworn also control many routes, so logically the unaffected roads would be Imperial controlled.
Helgen was the 'fair trial'. They're being executed for high treason which is why you have Ralof going "Treason, for fighting for your own people!"
They don't believe they've committed treason, so in their mind "Fair trial" would be charged with something else. The only other example of High Treason in TES lore met with the exact same fate as the Stormcloaks were about to. Summary execution.
Ulfric would have known that, besides being a Jarl, he also served in the Imperial Legion. He'd understand the law.
Let us recount. Ulfric is given the information... executes Tullius and orders the other Legionnaires hidden to be hunted down.
Ulfric killed Torygg, he knew damn well what the Empire's response would be. Killing the Emperor's vassal would always make the Legion step in, otherwise little Warlords may decide "Hey, he got away with it! Let's all try to kill some people and become rulers."
You can't risk upsetting a so called "Weak and Cowardly Empire" but you're going to take your petty army to the Aldmeri Dominion? Hahaha.
Tullius is right, Ulfric is willing to sacrifice thousands for his own selfish ambitions.
You call Tullius a warmonger, because what? The Legion stepped in to protect the thousands of citizens that want to remain part of the Empire?
What you fail to realize, is the Empire has to piss away resources for this petty war. Because if they don't, it can cause a domino effect.
"If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire." - Ulfric
Remember that when you call the Empire weak.
"From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - Tullius
Remember this, when you say the Empire are puppets to the Thalmor.
'I have word of a new Imperial force assembling in the south, ready to advance on our position as Pale Pass is clear.' - Stormcloak missive
Oh, and remember the first quote... Because Cyrodiil is coming.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
To accept the WGC, if you fought a long and bloody war for the Empire, then return to your home, infested with strangers, and you are no longer allowed to worship Talos, wouldn't you be a little pissed too? Yet when you attempt to govern yourself, the Empire won't allow you it? The Jarls being told to accept the WGC is further proof of the Empire's arrogance. They are battered, with only Hammerfell and Cyrodill still under the Imperial Flag, they shouldn't have jeopardized Skyrim.
The Imperials are no longer helping. They aren't keeping the Thalmor out, so why are they in Skyrim, trying to enforce laws the people weren't asked about, and forced to accept?
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
Of course I would be pissed, no one likes the White-gold Concordat. But everyone still had their little shrines to Talos, and the Empire wasn't enforcing the ban. It was years without problems... Until Ulfric and his Stormcloaks started going on and on about it, now all those people who were ignoring the Talos Ban, didn't give much thought about it... They're in danger now.
Attempt to govern yourself? What, killing the High King?
The Jarls were told to accept the WGC by High King Istlod, a greatly respected King whom even Ulfric calls a true High King of Skyrim. Skyrim isn't a democracy, they've been told to accept laws for thousands of years without a say. The Empire has Skyrim, Cyrodiil & High Rock.
And Stormcloaks are helping? By isolating the country, by kicking out the Empire who feeds your people with the fertile farmlands of Cyrodiil and High Rock?
What you have to understand, you can never keep the Thalmor out. Read the TES novels, they don't need an open presence. They will wreck damage on an independent Skyrim, Penitus Oculatus won't waste resources to stop them in Skyrim now.
The only thing standing in the way of the Thalmor ownership of Tamriel is the Empire. How is it smart to weaken the Empire further when they're on the brink of war. Only to just muster an even weaker army to face the Aldmeri Dominion.
J
Jeremius
Guest
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
The Thalmor aren't stupid. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gissur
Cloak and dagger is what the Thalmor do best; they fund bandits, assassinate, spread dissent and propaganda. They will disrupt every way possible.
Skyrim makes a very good target, due to the conflicting nature of the Nords. Something Imperials take advantage of.
For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. The Cyrodilic Empire and later the Septim Empire was able to take advantage of this tendency and recruit the warlike Nords to their side before they became a force of the opposition. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/Skyrim
J
Jeremius
Guest
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Arguments must sway minds if they are of use. I have seen none yet swayed.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Yes, surely. I once visited the Jarl of Markarth, and heard that very same Imperial argument. Right before I passed a Justiciar, prancing around with two Aldmeri Soldiers.
Empire's doing a good job, amirite?
J
Jeremius
Guest
because arguments only work on the open-minded. people stuck up in their opinions are not open-minded.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Then what is the use of our debate? I will never support the Empire. Not in their current state.
DrunkenMage
Intoxicated Arch-Mage
That Justiciar is the head of the Justicars, those two soldiers are Thalmor Agents. The Empire must be doing a good job, since the head of the Thalmor Justiciars can't even arrest one Nord and requires the players help.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
The Empire letting the Thalmor hunt the worshippers down in the first place is justified? After the service these veteran Nords have given to them, they can't even worship Talos freely? Threatened by elves that their ancestors have battled for ages? The Empire lets this happen, but is dumbfounded when the Nords declare that they want otherwise? Idiocy.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Or how about I like them more than the Empire? At least I'm not twisting the words of others.
J
Jeremius
Guest
When opinions clash, egos do as well. You cannot help it. Even if you like the Stormcloaks better, there is ego in trying to win an argument on the forums.
Vatonage
Joyeuse et Glorieuse
Good on you. I am doing this to test my skills at debate, but you can presume otherwise. Assumption has obviously benefited others in the past.
