Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
If you have Dawnguard you can get this armor after you kill Lord Harkon... or you can find one in the Volkihar Ruins. The location of the armor, including the shoes, would be located near the 2 sleeping coffins.
Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?
- Thread starter EvilCrazyCows
- Start date
If you have Dawnguard you can get this armor after you kill Lord Harkon... or you can find one in the Volkihar Ruins. The location of the armor, including the shoes, would be located near the 2 sleeping coffins.
theoperation
Hero of Jorvasskr
Ah, thank you. Now I've just got to wait until Dawnguard comes out on PS3.
Damn I wish I played Skyrim on PC
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Can't believe we even have to go there AGAIN - but Tullius at the end of the Stormcloak questline in no way resembles "a puss" who freaks out under pressure. Someone like that would have been screaming and hiding behind curtains and crying for his life to be spared. The man's pretty damn composed. If not that, then he would have skipped town long before Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum finally showed up there.
I've never argued that Tullius is a perfect character - because none of them are. But seriously, to essentially fault him for not being a Nord, not understanding or fully appreciating the culture and not running fanatically into Ulfric's sword at the end like a deranged Mel Gibson William Wallace bot is downright absurd.
I've never argued that Tullius is a perfect character - because none of them are. But seriously, to essentially fault him for not being a Nord, not understanding or fully appreciating the culture and not running fanatically into Ulfric's sword at the end like a deranged Mel Gibson William Wallace bot is downright absurd.
J
Jeremius
Guest
About this spy stuff. Would it not be easier to look for someone who actually knows what is going on in the war, say the Steward or RALOF?
just saying.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
Are you trying to tell me that Tullius wasn't acting like a puss when Legate Rikke told Ulfric and Galmar that he has given up, but she hasn't? If that isn't acting like a puss then what was Tullius doing sitting on the chair in total silent like a frighten child while Rikkie (Big bad mom) was the one that was doing all the talking? Who's the real General in this outfit? Did Bethesda made the mistake of putting the wrong outfit on the NPC? Because I could of sworn that when I walk into castle dour that I thought Rikke was the General.
Nobody is faulting Tullius for not being a nord so I don't know what prompted you to say that. I'm faulting him because he takes little interests in the Nordric culture and lore and thinks it's nonsense. Granted he learn to respect it at the end, but that doesn't change what he truly thinks deep inside.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
What does that have to do what is going on with the dark elves in Windhelm?
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Raijin, "a puss" runs away, cowers, hides...not sure what game you were playing, but in the one I've seen, Tullius sits there quietly resigned to his fate. You can't seriously think that makes him a coward. End of.
And lol, my comment was tied into the idea that he's not acting "Nord-like", embracing what you think is superior modus operandi of fanatically embracing one's death. That's what I meant.
And I'd love to know how you know what Tullius thinks "deep inside". Which PC mod grants us such powers to truly know the characters' every thoughts? Where is it on Nexus? I'd LOVE to get it to use on Ulfric.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Rolff and his buddy called them spies. Do you think they would actually know what is going on in the war and tell the empire? They may have motive, but I did not see a single Dunmer in the palace. HOW would they get the info?
This has to do with what is going on with them because someone on the inside would have to agree in helping them. *looks at Ulfric's steward*
Mr.Self Destruct
Chosen Undead
You assuming things about how strong the Empire was prior to the war are nothing but baseless accusations. It was Mede II's strategic planning and combat expertise which allowed the Imperials to retake the Imperial City during the Battle of the Red Ring (Which he also fought in.) From this we can gather that Mede isn't stupid, nor is he a weak strategist.
The Thalmor gave the Empire an ultimatum, surrender to their ways or death. The Emperor refused and so began the war. The Emperor knew war was upon them the moment he refused the ultimatum, it didn't come as a shock nor a surprise. Get your lore together, I'm spending more time correcting you rather then actually debating.
It isn't up to a single jarl and his men to decide what's best for an entire nation, that aside the Stormcloaks did begin hostilities by murdering the High King. At that point the Empire is obligated to hunt down Ulfric. Trying to find symbolism or argue against that with bravado is pointless considering it's a fact that the Civil War began when Torygg died.
So it's the dead people of Cyrodiil's fault that the Thalmor are in Skyrim? What?
This I already know.
How was Tulius going to give Ulfric information when a Thamor agent instructed to prevent such a thing was also present at the meeting? Furthermore Ulfric gave the Thalmor information during the Great War to save himself.
And the attitude he has during the Bear of Markarth is parallel to his attitude during the battle of Whiterun, and that Braig's story pretty much confirms people were being executed left and right.
Igmund didn't have a magic crystal ball that allowed him to see what conditions were like in Markarth, furthermore he still wanted his city back as he considered himself the rightful ruler. The moral aspect of Igmund wanting his city back is irrelevant. Skyrim had lost a hold to the Forsworn and as jarl; Igmund was obligated to take it back.
Ulfric is partially responsible? If anything he's just as responsible considering he was the one who not only followed through with his orders but slaughtered innocent Nord men, women and children. Igmund never instructed him to go as far as that. You seem to be forgetting that Ulfric is a conscious man with free-will and the ability to make his own decisions. He allied with Igmund so he could continue worshiping Talos.
Igmund is a dirty, sleazy slime ball but Ulfric is a murdering brute.
Mr.Self Destruct
Chosen Undead
And for Raijiin
Note how Ulfric sits slouched in his throne, leaning his head against his arm until fighting begins.
Just goes to show how idiotic it is to bring gameplay mechanics into a debate between lore.
Note how Ulfric sits slouched in his throne, leaning his head against his arm until fighting begins.
Just goes to show how idiotic it is to bring gameplay mechanics into a debate between lore.
J
Jeremius
Guest
Both sides are at fault for the Civil war. The empire is at fault because the WGC cause Ulfric to be disheartened by the empire and caused his murdering of Torygg, which is why the stormcloaks are at fault.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
It certainly didn't help when his country was being invaded by the Thalmor eh? If Mede wasn't stupid nor weak then theirs no reason why he had to surrender to the elves, and to essentially turn his back on the founding father of the empire. Thats why a lot of people disliked him in the first place.
The result came down to the Thalmor winning this war, and became slaves to the elves... and here you're telling me that Mede empire isn't stupid or weak. I bet Tiber Septim is spinning in his grave after witnessing this tragedy, and watching his empire go down in shame.
AHHHHHHH! Are you trying to start up the “Ulfric murdered the high king” debate again? Because if you are I rest to sure you that he in fact accepted the duel. It was no longer a murder but a verbal agreement. We already seen how much the empire cares for the Nordic culture by taking a good look at General Tullius. I don't expect the Empire to know much or any about the Nordic tradition.
I'm going to repost what I said for the sake of it. I think you've clearly misread what I've posted, or trying to attempt to put words in my mouth. I don't know what your motivation for this post.
“Their fighting for their freedom... fighting for Independence. While Cyrodiil did get a beating from the Thalmor (as discussed before) it's essentially their fault that Thalmor is in Skyrim slaughtering people for doing one thing... worshiping Talos. Can you not blame them for what their doing?”
Can you please show me where I'm blaming the dead people of Cyrodiil for the Thalmor presence of skyrim? I'm blaming the Mede Empire for allowing this to happen.
If Tullius was smart enough he'll think of ways to give Ulfric information regarding about the Thalmor. How hard is it to request a secret meeting without letting Elewen know of it? I never once seen a Thalmor agent inside the walls of Soliude except for a building that is called “Thalmor Headquarters”, but even so theirs no thalmor is inside. It apparently been recently abandoned.
The reachmen sees it a different way. They view themselves as the rightful ruler of the reach, and they actually lived in peace for those 2 years that they were in charge. Now that Igmund hired a bunch of nord militia to take the reach back caused a whole new range of problems. Yeah it gave Igmund what he wanted, but look at the reach now.
Do you know just how ignorant that sounds? You have no idea what Igmund told Ulfric prior to the invasion of Markarth. For all we know he could've told him to retake back the reach at ALL COST in a desperate act to rule Markarth again.
At least we can agree to something... well almost.
And for RaijiinNote how Ulfric sits slouched in his throne, leaning his head against his arm until fighting begins.
Just goes to show how idiotic it is to bring gameplay mechanics into a debate between lore.
LOL I cant believe Docta Corvina repped you for this as it proves my point that Ulfric doesn't need Galmar to speak on his behalf. And Ulfric said it himself that he would NEVER surrender... unlike a certain someone that we all know
Docta Corvina
Well-Known Member
Raijin…I in turn can’t believe you’re surprised that I repped Mr. Self-Destruct for it. Because it only serves to prove OUR long-running point about the fallacy of using game mechanics to argue in debates such as these. It’s quite similar to the way in which you persist in using the default Jarl slouching position against Balgruuf. It’s absurd. I would no more argue that Ulfric slouching has anything to do with his character than Tullius sitting with his arms crossed - or, for that matter, either one of their lieutenants jumping in front of them in the final battle.
It’s been said before, but I’ll say it again: Rikke had more extensive dialogue with Ulfric and Galmar because they were old friends. It’s really just that simple. It’s something Beth wanted to convey and they did so with dialogue. It gives it all a much more tragic element. Honestly, I can think of far more substantive arguments for the Stormcloak cause than Tullius failing to bluster and swagger at the end of the questline.
Really, now. Seriously.
It’s been said before, but I’ll say it again: Rikke had more extensive dialogue with Ulfric and Galmar because they were old friends. It’s really just that simple. It’s something Beth wanted to convey and they did so with dialogue. It gives it all a much more tragic element. Honestly, I can think of far more substantive arguments for the Stormcloak cause than Tullius failing to bluster and swagger at the end of the questline.
Really, now. Seriously.
juni0rj0hn
Article Writer
Ok, I avoided reading others' posts to not get confused and off topic. I hope you've stayed on topic as well. No matter how bad the Stormcloaks or Imperials were, there was of course a preferable side. You must read up on your Skyrim history, especially the books of the game itself. If you read the three books of the info on Saarthal(you'll get to that in the College of Winterhold quests), you begin to understand the deep rooted hate for elves on the Nords' side. It explains how Saarthal used to be the main city of the Nords, and the Elves selfishly sttscked it with no requard of the Nords, just for the Eye of Magnus. This also had alot to do with the subject of Ysgramor and the 500. If I remember correctly, Ulfric was an Imperial and clearly explains it in his first speech as you walk into the Palace of Kings(more on that in the Thalmor dossier in the main quest), and this whole Forsworn thing has alot to do with it also(I reccomend you do the "No one escapes from Chidna Mine" quest in Markarth). But overall, when you think about it in the Stormcloacks defense, the Empire really have no grounds or any right to ban the worship of Talos just at the tip of an Aldmeri sword. See, besides that, they have nothing but a little false racism. In addition, the only people who EVER were racist with the dark Elves were those two idiots when you come into Windhelm, and the guards call everyone names by their race. Anyways, the Strormcloaks have a right to land and religion, that's all they were fighting for.
Hope that helped!
Mr.Self Destruct
Chosen Undead
It isn't stupid or weak; nor does it take half a brain to look at the situation the Empire is in and say "Hey, maybe they need to take a breather." It would've been stupid if Mede II had continued fighting, guaranteeing the burning out of the already thinning number of legions and ravaging Cyrodiil any further. The notion that surrendering makes you weak is absurd; is Germany weak for surrendering to the Allies? No, and note that even after being ravaged economically thirty years later they made a come back as the strongest military force in the world.
So because the Empire loses a war that makes it weak and stupid? You realize the Empire has been ravaged on levels in the past which make the Great War pale in comparison? That even after the Akaviri invasions, the Oblivion Crisis and Molag Bal trying to pull Nirn into Coldharbour, the Empire has arisen stronger? The Empire has lasted for 4 eras, has been on the brunt of innumerable conflicts and wars and you're trying to tell me Tiber Septim is turning (not spinning) in his grave at how disappointing and weak his Empire has turned out?
Is this real life?
Murder, duel, kill, whatever you want to call. Whether or not the parameters of the altercation were fair or just is far behind this, and in the case of whomever began the Civil War it's irrelevant. Fact is the war began when the Stormcloaks killed Torygg.
And saying the Empire doesn't care for Nordic culture is idiotic considering Skyrim has been a province for centuries, and the Empire was founded by Nords.
"While Cyrodiil did take a beating it's essentially their fault." Trying to point the blame at the soldiers and troops who held their ground against the Thalmor all across Cyrodiil is both futile and goes to show how little you know. Mede II fought with his troops, was a brilliant strategist and fought until no more fighting could be done.
"If" and any other hypothetical situations you've managed to think up are both irrelevant because I could easily come back and say "If Ulfric was smart, how come he hasn't managed to put a dent in the Thalmor occupying force?" From Season Unending it's obvious the Thalmor know what's going on in the Empire.
In a game of war and conquest anything is fair game, there really are no rules and any faction or power; if they choose to, can take and/or conquer territory from others. It doesn't matter if it's morally just or politically correct; people want power. Igmund wanted his city back because he considers it his. So he hired Ulfric to take it back with false promises.
Haven't I been saying that these past few posts? That whether or not Igmund told Ulfric to take the city "at all cost" (right, like killing innocent Nords was needed.) Is both unclear and unknown? Yet you continue to slam Igmund, stating "He let violence back into the city!" And "He told Ulfric to do it!" When in fact none of us know what specific instructions were given? But Igmund is still the bad guy here when Ulfric slew innocents just so he could legally worship Talos?
LOL I cant believe Docta Corvina repped you for this as it proves my point that Ulfric doesn't need Galmar to speak on his behalf. And Ulfric said it himself that he would NEVER surrender... unlike a certain someone that we all know
Well, Ulfric did surrender to Elenwen in a Thalmor torture room 20 years ago.
Jersey Dagmar
Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
LOL I cant believe Docta Corvina repped you for this as it proves my point that Ulfric doesn't need Galmar to speak on his behalf. And Ulfric said it himself that he would NEVER surrender... unlike a certain someone that we all know
She's allowed to give rep points to whoever she feels deserves it. You just constantly get smashed and owned time and time again and get butthurt that your posts aren't getting the same acknowledgement.
Seanu Reaves
The Shogun of Gaming
*excited clapping bouncing up and down* Ooooo The black hole has started again.
Look this wont solve anything but my roommates friend is a valiant stormcloak. I myself support the empire. We came to the conclusion both sides are Gray on the scale of Black and White. Both have possitives and negatives you cant refute. But please dont insult leaders. When Tulius wins he says he grew to love Skyrim and its people even without understanding the culture.
Ulfric doesnt kill Elisef.
Why argue when unless they have import save feature in the next one the Empire will likely have won... logically
Look this wont solve anything but my roommates friend is a valiant stormcloak. I myself support the empire. We came to the conclusion both sides are Gray on the scale of Black and White. Both have possitives and negatives you cant refute. But please dont insult leaders. When Tulius wins he says he grew to love Skyrim and its people even without understanding the culture.
Ulfric doesnt kill Elisef.
Why argue when unless they have import save feature in the next one the Empire will likely have won... logically
J
Jeremius
Guest
I have to somewhat agree with this. When the great war continues, all humans will likely be on the same side, no matter who rules Skyrim.
Raijin
A Mage that loves a Templar
Every time I point out a flaw with Tullius you like to bring up “oh it's game mechanics”. I suppose it's also game mechanics when Tullius flat out gave up while Ulfric was willing to die for what he believes in, and knows whats best for his country.
While it may seem fluffy like to have Rikke have pointless talk with Ulfric and Galmar... the fact to the matter is this is WAR. It was disrespectful in a way. General Tullius showed LACK of control over the situation. Compare him from Season unsending to Battle of Solitude... What happen to the
assertiveness that he once had back then? Besides....When you go to Korvanjund to find the Jagged Crown did you see both Stormcloak and Imperial soldiers talking up a storm at their long loss friends on the other side? No it was down right battling. No fluffy talk, nothing.
Galmar: "Listen up. Those Imperials aren't here by coincidence. Their spies must've found out we know about the Crown, and they don't want us to have it. But they won't stand in our way. I know some of you are ex-legion and may know men on the other side. But remember this. They are the enemy now and they will not hesitate to kill you. Keep your wits about you and watch your shield brother's back."
Rikkie said something quite similar to what Galmar said if you side with the imperials
Rikke: "Listen up, legionnaires. Those Stormcloaks are here for the same reason we are. Ulfric the Pretender wants that crown, but we're not going to let him have it. I realize some of you may know men on the other side. But remember this. They are the enemy now and will not hesitate to end your lives either."
I guess Rikke is talk the talk, and not walk the walk, eh? And before you go around and use this against me by saying “Oh but Ulfric and Galmar had a fluffy talk with Rikke on battle of Solitude... well you're right. WAR isn't for the fluffiness. While they may of been friends long time ago, their now enemies. Why do you want to spare the very same person that wants to kill and sabotage what you work so hard to do?
As far as slouching position comment regarding to Balgruuf was made either to be a joke or using it to be sarcastic. Either way I judge someone that I don't know base on how they raise their children, and we all know how disrespectful those little plopss are when you're around them. You apparently seem to be persistent of bringing this debate back since you keep bringing it up, not me.
And I'm allowed to laugh at the decision too. It works both ways. What is it to you anyways? All I see are 2 people backing each other up. No I'm not getting owned. That's just YOUR OPINION and your OPINION only. I'm sure your buddies will agree with you because after all that's what friends do, right? I bet Docta will give you some rep points for posting this up
If not I'm surprise by it 
