Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[Jeremius]

And the living conditions ? The fair wages and glass ceiling ? Is that acceptable as well ?

It's also funny how "there's no room" is merely an assumption, why shouldn't there be room for dunmer and argonians in A CITY in the first place ?

Because the Nords were there first? I do not know, all I know is the grey quarter is what the Dunmer got, so they have to stick with it. Plus, I find it funny that I see very few Dunmer outside of Windhelm or Riften. Like they do not exist except in small numbers.

 

[Docta Corvina]

Just speculation, but I think the reason why the higher concentrations of Dunmer are in Riften and Windhelm (ie., on the eastern side of Skyrim) is geographically explained. Those were the first major cities they encountered after fleeing the devastating mountain eruption. They only had the few items and resources they could carry with them after fleeing their homeland and that's why they've had to stick with what they could eke out in those towns for so long.

 

[feliciano182]

Because the Nords were there first? I do not know, all I know is the grey quarter is what the Dunmer got, so they have to stick with it. Plus, I find it funny that I see very few Dunmer outside of Windhelm or Riften. Like they do not exist except in small numbers.

Oh, so "being there first" is what really entitles you to being adequately treated within a hold ?

Really friend, you don't believe any of this, you couldn't possibly do so, it's okay if you like The Stormcloaks better, but you could maybe imagine your character has issues with Ulfric's policies or something, it's really bizarre when you make these type of "justifications" that do not work in any organized morality system ever conceived.

 

[Jeremius]

Oh, so "being there first" is what really entitles you to being adequately treated within a hold ?

Really friend, you don't believe any of this, you possible couldn't, it's okay if you like The Stormcloaks better, but you could maybe imagine your character has issues with Ulfric's policies or something, it's really bizarre when you make these type of "justifications" that only work in your head.

I honestly do not know what is going on in those areas, but slums are the best they could possibly take, I guess.

 

[Kendov]

My initial character was an imperial because they had heavy armor and used swords but then after the war I realized u could use anything because after I defended whiterun I learned about magic and started wearing steel plate they said nothing of it. General Tuluis is a cool guy but ulfric just seems like a natural leader. The stormcloaks are more focussed on their cause and i like fighting as an underdog. though stormcloaks are all nords you can join as any race. As one guy said before its basically red or blue. Both sides don't like thalmor either but the imperials have to deal with them. I personally hate them

 

[Jeremius]

My initial character was an imperial because they had heavy armor and used swords but then after the war I realized u could use anything because after I defended whiterun I learned about magic and started wearing steel plate they said nothing of it. General Tuluis is a cool guy but ulfric just seems like a natural leader. The stormcloaks are more focussed on their cause and i like fighting as an underdog. though stormcloaks are all nords you can join as any race. As one guy said before its basically red or blue. Both sides don't like thalmor either but the imperials have to deal with them. I personally hate them

Good point, let's leave it at "do what you want, and forget everyone else."

 

[Kendov]

That's my point. And where did u get ur signature at? I've seen a few of those plus some that say warrior or thief

 

[Jeremius]

That's my point. And where did u get ur signature at? I've seen a few of those plus some that say warrior or thief

do not remember, some online quiz that determines you magic: the gathering color.

 

[Squirrel_killer-]

Good point, let's leave it at "do what you want, and forget everyone else."

Yes, however this is a discussion about the perks of the two sides and their beliefs, so while you are entitled to that opinion of "do what you want, and forget everyone else." It generally is the type of thing that leaves you in a position of say it and leave the discussion.

 

[Sid]

I'm a Dunmer went with Ralof on the way out but betrayeed the stormcloaks on the jagged crown quest for my story. Plus I hate Ulfric "The Racist" Stormcloak.

 

[Raijin]

A court wizard's job is to act as an advisor and a consultant not a soldier. THey research and study not by fighting a dragon but by looking into magical sources, and studying artifacts and scholarly sources. It is the Jarls job to protect the hold at all costs, not the court wizard.

Where are you getting your information from may I ask? Please provide an NPC/book or whatever you can find that can back up this claim because I'm sick of repeating myself.

Then why did you say that I said the Thalmor don't want to enslave men, when I clearly said High Elves don't want to enslave man, which is what you wrote?

Because you're wrong. The Thalmor do want to enslave men. They strongly think that their race is far more superiority of Mer over Man. Don't you listen to what the Thalmor NPC say when you fight them? One of their quotes sound very savory orientated when they spill out “You are a dog, and I am your master!” during battle. Here's another example:

No. Ulfric is responsible for the people Ulfric killed. Ulfric. Get that into your dense skull. Seriously you're making me mad now and that's not an easy thing to do.

While it's true that Ulfric is responsible for the people that Ulfric kills, but the fact to the matter is Igmund started the forsworn war against the reachmen when he hired Ulfric and his Stormcloak army to retake back the reach for his own personal greed. He brought violence to Markarth.

If Ulfric kills someone it is his fault. I don't care if somone told him to do it, he is responsible for that death. If I tell you to kill someone and you kill them you are going to jail with me. Period.

Surprisingly enough I agree to this. However the Empire doesn't see it like that otherwise General Tullius would be sending his Imperial troops to Markarth to not only arrest Igmund of war crimes against humanity, but to convict him with those crimes. Even the Forsworn sees right through the corruption of the Empire.

The "Madmen" of the Reach by Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar (Same person that wrote the bear of Markarth) Lore:The "Madmen" of the Reach - UESPWiki

There, I met Cortoran, a Forsworn, who seemed amused at the prospect of me writing down his story. Which I quote in full below:

"You want to know who the Forsworn are? We are the people who must pillage our own land. Burn our own ground. We are the scourge of the Nords. The axe that falls in the dark. The scream before the gods claim your soul. We are the true sons and daughters of the Reach. The spirits and hags have lived here from the beginning, and they are on our side. Go back. Go back and tell your Empire that we will have our own kingdom again. And on that day, we will be the ones burying your dead in a land that is no longer yours."

Facts do matter. But you can't use them in situations where they are not relevant. How does "Forsworn Briar-Heart" translate to "Human Shield".

It's using common sense. While I cannot prove that they used children and the elderly as humans shields the fact to the matter is that their culture is abnormal, and somewhat socially unacceptable. If their willing to under go this savage procedure where they let a Hagraven open their chest cavity with their sharp claws to then take out their hearts and replace it with a Briarheart. I can see them doing something like this to children.

 

[Jeremius]

Raijin and azali100, You guys do know that Ulfric is only responsible if Ingmund has no knowledge of the incident, right? If Ingmund knew, and did not back out of the deal, he is just as responsible for those deaths. But, since there is no evidence that he knew, we have to assume he didn't.

Charles Manson ring any bells?

 

[Raijin]

Raijin and azali100, You guys do know that Ulfric is only responsible if Ingmund has no knowledge of the incident, right? If Ingmund knew, and did not back out of the deal, he is just as responsible for those deaths. But, since there is no evidence that he knew, we have to assume he didn't.

Charles Manson ring any bells?

Igmund had knowledge of the incident because hes the one that initiated it by hiring Ulfric and his Stormcloak army to retake back the reach from the reachman.

Lore:White-Gold Concordat - UESPWiki

The Stormcloak Rebellion began when Ulfric Stormcloak and his men, despite being promised otherwise during the Markarth Incident, were unable to continue worshipping Talos as they had always done, and this continues to be a major issue in the dispute.

Lore:Ulfric Stormcloak - UESPWiki

Ulfric led the militia to recapture the the Reach, in what would become known as the Markarth Incident.[6] It is rumored that Ulfric used the th'um to achieve this victory,[7] and he ultimately overthrew and captured the leader, Madanach.[6] When Markarth was returned to Nord control, the worship of Talos was publicly declared as permitted there in violation of the Concordat, a condition of Ulfric demanded before he would agree to relinquish control of the city.[6] The Imperial Legion had been largely ignoring Talos worship in Skyrim, but the Thalmor used the opportunity to demand its rigid enforcement, and the Empire reneged upon the agreement with Ulfric.[6][8][9] Thus the incident was a key factor in bringing about the Stormcloak Rebellion. Following the incident, Ulfric purportedly became uncooperative to direct contact with the Thalmor, and he was eventually deemed by them to be a dormant asset.[4]

Loreeople I - UESPWiki

Jarl Igmund (4E ?b - ?d)
Jarl of Markarth in 4E 201. His father was killed in the Forsworn uprising that led to the infamous Markarth Incident. Igmund accepted the help of his fellow Nord Ulfric Stormcloak and his militia to re-secure Markarth on the condition that Igmund allow free worship of Talos, a promise which could not be kept. Igmund took his father's place as Jarl of Markarth in 4E 176 and continued the fight against the Forsworn for the next twenty-five years.

 

[Jeremius]

Raijin, this argument is just like the Roggvir one. I, like some others, Believe that Roggvir was guilty of DOING HIS JOB, but others believe that since he knew, Which I find unlikely that he did at the time, he is guilty of treason, not enough Evidence to say he did not know at the time, so we have to assume that he knew at the time.

 

[azali100]

Where are you getting your information from may I ask? Please provide an NPC/book or whatever you can find that can back up this claim because I'm sick of repeating myself.

"Court Wizards are the jarls' personal mages who research and study magic."

From UESP

Because you're wrong. The Thalmor do want to enslave men. They strongly think that their race is far more superiority of Mer over Man. Don't you listen to what the Thalmor NPC say when you fight them? One of their quotes sound very savory orientated when they spill out “You are a dog, and I am your master!” during battle. Here's another example.

For **** sake man, I never said that. I challenge you to find one quote where I said the Thalmor don't want to enslave man. Go ahead.

While it's true that Ulfric is responsible for the people that Ulfric kills, but the fact to the matter is Igmund started the forsworn war against the reachmen when he hired Ulfric and his Stormcloak army to retake back the reach for his own personal greed. He brought violence to Markarth.

Yes he did bring violence to Markarth no one denies that. Unfortunately we are talking about Ulfrics moral issues not Igmund's. Thus Igmund has no part in the original argument.

If Ulfric killed civilians Ulfric killed civilians. Period. Okay? It doesn't matter who told him to do it, when we are talking about how bad/good of a person Ulfric is we are discussing Ulfric's deeds not Igmund's.

Surprisingly enough I agree to this. However the Empire doesn't see it like that otherwise General Tullius would be sending his Imperial troops to Markarth to not only arrest Igmund of war crimes against humanity, but to convict him with those crimes. Even the Forsworn sees right through the corruption of the Empire.

I agree. Clearly this takes place in a setting where Noblemen could get away with such things, otherwise both Ulfric and Igmund would have been arrested. Ulfric wasn't targeted until he killed the King.

It's using common sense. While I cannot prove that they used children and the elderly as humans shields the fact to the matter is that their culture is abnormal, and somewhat socially unacceptable. If their willing to under go this savage procedure where they let a Hagraven open their chest cavity with their sharp claws to then take out their hearts and replace it with a Briarheart. I can see them doing something like this to children.

How does enchanting yourself with magic suddenly turn you into a child murderer? How do you even use a human shield against a sword or a mace or an axe? That's idiotic and highly implausible. Furthermore it was stated that these people were killed after the battle indicating an execution. Human shield during an execution? Somehow I don't see that being very likley.

"What happened during that battle was war, but what happened after the battle was over is nothing short of war crimes."
---The Bear of Markarth

 

[azali100]

Raijin, this argument is just like the Roggvir one. I, like some others, Believe that Roggvir was guilty of DOING HIS JOB, but others believe that since he knew, Which I find unlikely that he did at the time, he is guilty of treason, not enough Evidence to say he did not know at the time, so we have to assume that he knew at the time.

There was most likley a trial off-screen.

 

[Jeremius]

There was most likley a trial off-screen.

Unless there is evidence on that, we can only assume there was.

 

[azali100]

Unless there is evidence on that, we can only assume there was.

True. Although based on Imperial law and their Roman counterparts it is a safe assumption.

 

[Jeremius]

True. Although based on Imperial law and their Roman counterparts it is a safe assumption.

Just like we can only assume Ulfric is a racist because of a racial policy he probably never bothered dealing with because of the Civil war, and that Ulfric considered those who did not fight with him during the Markarth incident as not Nord.

 

[azali100]

Just like we can only assume Ulfric is a racist because of a racial policy he probably never bothered dealing with because of the Civil war, and that Ulfric considered those who did not fight with him during the Markarth incident as not Nord.

No that makes him absolutely a racist.