Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[DrunkenMage]

Oh I could beat him normally, it just speeds up time XD.

Milk drinker tactics. Probably why the Nords call the Imperials milk drinkers, Nords enjoy one on one honorable combat. Imperials will use every advantage to win battles, you bring an axe they bring a catapult. Though the Nords are often impressed with the Imperial ability to win battles, very tactical minded Imperials. Nord tactics are more run towards enemy, swing an axe above your head while shouting a battle cry.

Milk drinker isn't as much of an insult as it is a saying. Imperial Legion aren't cowards, in the Great war an entire Legion sacrificed itself to defend the Emperor's retreat from the Imperial city so he could link up with other Legions to continue the fighting. The loyalty and love they have in their duty is remarkable, they sacrificed themselves full knowing they would die in the rear defense, but they did it willingly, bound by an undying oath the Legion is a force to be reckoned with when defending their Emperor. Nords always insult Imperials, just like Imperials insult Nords, they've been very long allies, just their kind of strange relationship. Who don't the Nords insult is the better question.

Quentin: "The men will be fighting in flames."
Balgruuf: "My men are fearless. It's the Imperial milk drinkers I'm worried about."
Quentin: "If you prefer I took my men and left..."
Balgruuf: "No. Of course not. Just - don't let me down Cipius. We'll need to set up water brigades to combat the flames."
Quentin: "Already taken care of."
Balgruuf: "You Imperials are efficient, I'll give you that. How long until they arrive?"

 

[Raijin]

Fair battle? Is using ancient magic and slaughtering a man while he's on the ground fair and honorable? I've come across Bandits with more honor. It's High Treason because he killed the High King, it's High Treason to many Nords because he broke the agreement of the duel, hence why half of Skyrim is up in arms against him.

Base on the combat experience between the both... Ulfric did have the upper hand while Torygg did not have much experience in battle. However Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge, and he died with a sword in his heart, not from the shout that everyone keeps blabbing about. The only thing that Ulfric is guilty of is High Treason against the Empire, not because he killed the High King because Torygg did made a vocal agreement when he accepted the duel, and this could be proven by meeting Toryg in Sovngarde "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" Ulfric said that their were many witnesses.... Why didn't the Empire give him a fair trial? To prevent his witnesses from telling the truth? That it was a fair duel, and that Ulfric was in the right? Even Ralof said at the beginning that the Empire wouldn't dare give him a fair trial.

Only seems fair, you blame Mede because he didn't agree to the Terms of the Thalmor to begin with, you blame Mede for fighting against the Aldmeri Dominion, you also blame Mede because the Thalmor killed all the Blades agents in Valenwood and Summerset Isles before they even met with Mede to deliver terms. So perhaps you should stop blaming Titus Mede II for every little thing you can come up with to back a weak standing argument.

I can't help it if Titus Mede II is driving the Empire down to the ground. The Dark Brotherhood did Tamriel a favor by assassinating him.

Who brought the Thalmor everywhere? Ulfric Stormcloak, his actions caused the Thalmor to put pressure on the Empire. No one was getting dragged off in the night for secret worship until Ulfric and the True Sons of Skyrim started. Before Ulfric stirring up things it took the Thalmor an entire week to arrest a man who was singing songs about Talos, everyday for an entire week

Ulfric didn't invite the Thalmor to Skyrim... It was the damn treaty that the Emperor signed granting permission to the Thalmost (A power boost) to arrest Talos worshipers. Ulfric is just standing up for his and others rights to openly worship Talos. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with standing up for your self and putting an end to tyranny? To fight for your freedom while the Empire becomes the Aldmeri Dominion's obedient puppy for the next couple of decades?

 

[DrunkenMage]

Base on the combat experience between the both... Ulfric did have the upper hand while Torygg did not have much experience in battle. However Torygg did accepted Ulfric's challenge, and he died with a sword in his heart, not from the shout that everyone keeps blabbing about. The only thing that Ulfric is guilty of is High Treason against the Empire, not because he killed the High King because Torygg did made a vocal agreement when he accepted the duel, and this could be proven by meeting Toryg in Sovngarde "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?" Ulfric said that their were many witnesses.... Why didn't the Empire give him a fair trial? To prevent his witnesses from telling the truth? That it was a fair duel, and that Ulfric was in the right? Even Ralof said at the beginning that the Empire wouldn't dare give him a fair trial.



I can't help it if Titus Mede II is driving the Empire down to the ground. The Dark Brotherhood did Tamriel a favor by assassinating him.



Ulfric didn't invite the Thalmor to Skyrim... It was the damn treaty that the Emperor signed granting permission to the Thalmost (A power boost) to arrest Talos worshipers. Ulfric is just standing up for his and others rights to openly worship Talos. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with standing up for your self and putting an end to tyranny? To fight for your freedom while the Empire becomes the Aldmeri Dominion's obedient puppy for the next couple of decades?

Ulfric is guilty for more than just High Treason, you just used Torygg saying that Ulfric was dishonorable in the duel as proof it was a fair duel... That really helps your cause. Ulfric is charged with a few things, "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Funny how his witnesses are saying he murdered the High King... the only person who was in Solitude who supported Ulfric's actions, was the gate guard who wasn't anywhere near the Blue Palace. He is guilty of killing the High King, he says he killed him, his Stormcloaks know he did it, everyone in Skyrim know he did it. What is the point of a trial if he is already guilty, he went to the Blue Palace with the intent of killing the High King. You can't go around killing anyone you want, not by Imperial Law.

Imperial Law is higher than Skyrim 'tradition'.

You blame Titus Mede II for every little thing you can think of to back biased weak standing arguments "It's his fault the Blades were killed... even though the Thalmor hadn't even ended their 70 years of silence, so he should be able to see into the future, it's all his fault" "It's Titus Mede II fault the Great War happened, he should of agreed to the Thalmor Ultimatum and given southern Hammerfell, outlawed Talos, disbanded the Blades, paid the Thalmor huge sums of money because prevention is the key, even though all of the Empire would of been torn apart by Civil war and thousands killed internally while the Thalmor could just walk in unopposed because it is what I would of done" then the "It's Titus Mede II fault a peace treaty was struck with the Thalmor, the Empire are cowards because they couldn't fight anymore, they should of kept fighting but even though I blame them for fighting in the Great war anyway, because my tactical skills would of been surrendering without a fight even though I would of hated the Empire even more, but I use this as an argument like I would of supported them if they did."

The Empire did not enforce the Ban on Talos, this is acknowledged many times over. It wasn't until Ulfric started up trouble did the Thalmor come in force, putting pressure on the Empire to enforce their part of the treaty. What gives Ulfric the rights to go against a treaty thousands died for, he's ruled by emotions to the point he is unstable, he is fighting against Tyranny? How can you fight to remove Tyranny when you put a Tyrant on the throne. He seeks to take control of Skyrim for himself, place Galmar in charge of keeping the Jarls of Skyrim in line, making sure they follow every one of Ulfric's orders, he claims honoring traditions, but removes tradition when it doesn't suit him, he was the one holding back the moot, saying Damn the Jarls and damn the moot, that is something you expect from Tullius not from a 'True Nord' who honors tradition. Yet at the end he claims to love and respect the Moot, only when he has Galmar in charge of the Jarls, his armies loyal only to him and no one else. The killing of the High King was merely a message to the other Jarls, how could he truly be fighting for freedom if the bloody man he killed, liked and respect Ulfric and wanted to hear more about independence, that is why Ulfric was allowed back inside the Blue Palace without suspicion, they thought he was going to ask Torygg to declare independence.

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

The Jarls will need their armies to rule. Ulfric cares for songs and how he will be remembered, not his people. He is a tyrant who is blinded by stubborn Pride, so into his display he gives off that he has lost himself in it. The man who cares for tradition and Nordic culture... yeah he completely does, even though he's willing to end the fairness of The Pact of Chieftains.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

She'll hand Skyrim over to the Elves? The Empire are the ones keeping the Armies of elves out of Skyrim, they're hardly Thalmor puppets. Only puppets are Stormcloaks so dumb they can't even realize they're being aided by the Thalmor.

Let Ulfric take his army, let them be destroyed because he only wanted songs and a good story.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Ulfric: "Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song."
Tullius: "Song or not, I just want it done."

Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after - perhaps the Dragonborn should be the one to do it."



After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.


He seeks to remove all Imperial presence, yeah it is completely perfect to remove all trade and commerce to Skyrim. What on earth do they plan to do when they won't even buy from Non-Nords, Skyrim at least under full Imperial control, there are more people happy than upset. In the bigger picture the Empire can at least reach the Thalmor, Stormcloaks can boast all they want about fighting the Dominion, but they don't like magic so it's going to be interesting how they defend against an army that can hit them with lightning and fireballs.

Geographically speaking, Skyrim can't don't anything by itself. They can sit around going on and on about how they're taking their army to the dominion. Good luck invading Cyrodiil when you can't risk all out war with the Empire.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." - Ulfric

Can't even afford a war with the Empire yet they think they can stand against the Aldmeri Dominion... how they get to the Dominion is another question all together, they aren't going to make peace with the Empire, that hope was lost when he executed Tullius after he surrendered, Tullius would of been a bargaining chip to get the Empire to form a treaty with skyrim or even peace talks.

Though looking at a map, they aren't going anywhere without heavy losses, they go by sea? Weeks or months at sea to Summerset Isles? No reinforcements, no safe port till all the way back to Solitude.

 

[MaraRose]

PLUS, its always fun being the rebel

 

[Ozan]

Ulfric is guilty for more than just High Treason, you just used Torygg saying that Ulfric was dishonorable in the duel as proof it was a fair duel... That really helps your cause. Ulfric is charged with a few things, "Ulfric Stormcloak! You are guilty of insurrection, murder of Imperial citizens, the assassination of King Torygg, and high treason against the Empire. It's over." - General Tullius

Funny how his witnesses are saying he murdered the High King... the only person who was in Solitude who supported Ulfric's actions, was the gate guard who wasn't anywhere near the Blue Palace. He is guilty of killing the High King, he says he killed him, his Stormcloaks know he did it, everyone in Skyrim know he did it. What is the point of a trial if he is already guilty, he went to the Blue Palace with the intent of killing the High King. You can't go around killing anyone you want, not by Imperial Law.

Imperial Law is higher than Skyrim 'tradition'.

You blame Titus Mede II for every little thing you can think of to back biased weak standing arguments "It's his fault the Blades were killed... even though the Thalmor hadn't even ended their 70 years of silence, so he should be able to see into the future, it's all his fault" "It's Titus Mede II fault the Great War happened, he should of agreed to the Thalmor Ultimatum and given southern Hammerfell, outlawed Talos, disbanded the Blades, paid the Thalmor huge sums of money because prevention is the key, even though all of the Empire would of been torn apart by Civil war and thousands killed internally while the Thalmor could just walk in unopposed because it is what I would of done" then the "It's Titus Mede II fault a peace treaty was struck with the Thalmor, the Empire are cowards because they couldn't fight anymore, they should of kept fighting but even though I blame them for fighting in the Great war anyway, because my tactical skills would of been surrendering without a fight even though I would of hated the Empire even more, but I use this as an argument like I would of supported them if they did."

The Empire did not enforce the Ban on Talos, this is acknowledged many times over. It wasn't until Ulfric started up trouble did the Thalmor come in force, putting pressure on the Empire to enforce their part of the treaty. What gives Ulfric the rights to go against a treaty thousands died for, he's ruled by emotions to the point he is unstable, he is fighting against Tyranny? How can you fight to remove Tyranny when you put a Tyrant on the throne. He seeks to take control of Skyrim for himself, place Galmar in charge of keeping the Jarls of Skyrim in line, making sure they follow every one of Ulfric's orders, he claims honoring traditions, but removes tradition when it doesn't suit him, he was the one holding back the moot, saying Damn the Jarls and damn the moot, that is something you expect from Tullius not from a 'True Nord' who honors tradition. Yet at the end he claims to love and respect the Moot, only when he has Galmar in charge of the Jarls, his armies loyal only to him and no one else. The killing of the High King was merely a message to the other Jarls, how could he truly be fighting for freedom if the bloody man he killed, liked and respect Ulfric and wanted to hear more about independence, that is why Ulfric was allowed back inside the Blue Palace without suspicion, they thought he was going to ask Torygg to declare independence.

Galmar: "I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg."
Ulfric: "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

The Jarls will need their armies to rule. Ulfric cares for songs and how he will be remembered, not his people. He is a tyrant who is blinded by stubborn Pride, so into his display he gives off that he has lost himself in it. The man who cares for tradition and Nordic culture... yeah he completely does, even though he's willing to end the fairness of The Pact of Chieftains.

Galmar: "The Jarls are upset. They don't all support you."
Ulfric: "Damn the Jarls."
Galmar: "They demand the Moot."
Ulfric: "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Torygg's woman on the throne? She'll hand Skyrim over to the elves on a silver plate."

Ulfric: "And it is for these reasons that I cannot accept the mantle of "High King." Not until the Moot declares that title should adorn my shoulders will I accept it."

Ulfric: "How'd I do?"
Galmar: "Eh, not so bad. Nice touch about the High King."
Ulfric: "Thank you, I thought so, too."
Galmar: "It's a foregone conclusion, you know."
Ulfric: "Oh, I know."

She'll hand Skyrim over to the Elves? The Empire are the ones keeping the Armies of elves out of Skyrim, they're hardly Thalmor puppets. Only puppets are Stormcloaks so dumb they can't even realize they're being aided by the Thalmor.

Let Ulfric take his army, let them be destroyed because he only wanted songs and a good story.

Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."

Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."

Tullius: "You realize this is exactly what they wanted."
Galmar: "What who wanted?"
Tullius: "The Thalmor. They stirred up trouble here. Forced us to divert needed resources and throw away good soldiers quelling this rebellion."

Ulfric: "Let the Dragonborn be the one to do it. It'll make for a better song."
Tullius: "Song or not, I just want it done."

Galmar: "Just kill him and let's be done with it already."
Ulfric: "Come, Galmar. Where's your sense of the dramatic moment?"
Galmar: "By the gods! If it's a good ending to some damn story you're after - perhaps the Dragonborn should be the one to do it."



After the war, contact was established and he has proven his worth as an asset.The so-called Markarth Incident was particularly valuable from the point of view of our strategic goals in Skyrim, although it resulted in Ulfric becoming generally uncooperative to direct contact.

Operational Notes: Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the asset should be considered dormant. As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.


He seeks to remove all Imperial presence, yeah it is completely perfect to remove all trade and commerce to Skyrim. What on earth do they plan to do when they won't even buy from Non-Nords, Skyrim at least under full Imperial control, there are more people happy than upset. In the bigger picture the Empire can at least reach the Thalmor, Stormcloaks can boast all they want about fighting the Dominion, but they don't like magic so it's going to be interesting how they defend against an army that can hit them with lightning and fireballs.

Geographically speaking, Skyrim can't don't anything by itself. They can sit around going on and on about how they're taking their army to the dominion. Good luck invading Cyrodiil when you can't risk all out war with the Empire.

"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." - Ulfric

Can't even afford a war with the Empire yet they think they can stand against the Aldmeri Dominion... how they get to the Dominion is another question all together, they aren't going to make peace with the Empire, that hope was lost when he executed Tullius after he surrendered, Tullius would of been a bargaining chip to get the Empire to form a treaty with skyrim or even peace talks.

Though looking at a map, they aren't going anywhere without heavy losses, they go by sea? Weeks or months at sea to Summerset Isles? No reinforcements, no safe port till all the way back to Solitude.

Perhaps the Nord will liberate Hammerfell. Undo the sins committed to save a wretched beast.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Perhaps the Nord will liberate Hammerfell. Undo the sins committed to save a wretched beast.

Liberate Hammerfell? Liberate Hammerfell from what? The Redguards?

I doubt they would invade Hammerfell again, that would push Hammerfell back into the arms of the Empire.

 

[The Laoch]

I could see Hammerfell being a great ally to the Empire or Skyrim.

 

[Raijin]

(I will be dealing with the serious posts later)

 

[DrunkenMage]

I could see Hammerfell being a great ally to the Empire or Skyrim.

Yeah they can be, but Stormcloak dislike for other races and the no buying from Non-Nords will hinder them in alliance building with Hammerfell, especially since Hammerfell and Skyrim don't have the most friendly history with each other.

Though this is a good and true part of the book 'The Great War'

But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventual Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180 and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell.
There can be no doubt that the current peace cannot last forever. The Thalmor take the long view, as is proved by the sequence of events leading up to the Great War. All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat. Otherwise, any hope to stem the tide of Thalmor rule over all of Tamriel is dimmed.

 

[Ozan]

Skyrim is for the Nord, Khajiit greatly doubts that they wouldn't wish to establish trade, develop treaties, even if they look down on other races. We speak of a game of nations, not the mundane gossip amongst merchant types and townspeople. A footsoldier doesn't negotiate a peace treaty, only fight wars. To assume the views of the soldiers would affect anything is a foolish notion.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Skyrim is for the Nord, Khajiit greatly doubts that they wouldn't wish to establish trade, develop treaties, even if they look down on other races. We speak of a game of nations, not the mundane gossip amongst merchant types and townspeople. A footsoldier doesn't negotiate a peace treaty, only fight wars. To assume the views of the soldiers would affect anything is a foolish notion.

Galmar and Ulfric are soldiers. So yes the views of their soldiers would affect everything, they aren't controlling a professional army, their army is ruled by emotion with leaders full of anger and hate, all that emotion from their leaders spills into the soldiers. It isn't the Imperial Army where an order is given and it is obeyed without question an oath doesn't mean too much for many Stormcloaks, many of which have already broken an oath. When you have rulers being guided by hate and anger and only care how they are remembered, negotiations and peace treaties aren't good for song and stories. What of Skyrim's standing among other provinces? Not one single province came to Ulfric's aid.

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

 

[Ozan]

Galmar and Ulfric are soldiers. So yes the views of their soldiers would affect everything, they aren't controlling a professional army, their army is ruled by emotion with leaders full of anger and hate, all that emotion from their leaders spills into the soldiers. It isn't the Imperial Army where an order is given and it is obeyed without question an oath doesn't mean too much for many Stormcloaks, many of which have already broken an oath. When you have rulers being guided by hate and anger and only care how they are remembered, negotiations and peace treaties aren't good for song and stories. What of Skyrim's standing among other provinces? Not one single province came to Ulfric's aid.

Ulfric: "Is there any news from High Rock?"
Galmar: "Not a peep. Those prissy Bretons can't be made to lift a finger to help their neighbors."
Ulfric: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire."
Galmar: "Those milk drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us."
Ulfric: "Regardless. It appears Skyrim must stand alone. Again."

See... this would appear to Ozan as a point in his favor. You claim that the Nord wouldn't seek foreign aid... yet, they've tried before. You also claimed that they don't blindly follow orders as Legion would.

So, as you're off to blindly commit more war crimes, Ozan shall liberate a nation in need.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

 

[DrunkenMage]

See... this would appear to Ozan as a point in his favor. You claim that the Nord wouldn't seek foreign aid... yet, they've tried before. You also claimed that they don't blindly follow orders as Legion would.

So, as you're off to blindly commit more war crimes, Ozan shall liberate a nation in need.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing.

Asking if there was news isn't seeking foreign aid. Ulfric doesn't want to appear weak, so he would never ask for help while he doesn't control Skyrim, such as Season Unending. 'Not all the Jarls are fully committed to supporting me as High King. I can't afford to appear weak.'

Blindly commit more war crimes? Stormcloaks can hardly boast about Legion war crimes, not with their short history of only around twenty years already stained with war crimes.

Liberate a nation in need? You said it yourself 'Skyrim for the Nord' unless you're a Nord, what are you liberating? Freedom of racial segregation, Ulfric even refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits, even though he is "the first to sound the horn" when Nord villages are being threatened. Hardly the traits of a future High King seeking alliances and treaties, if he won't defend non-nords in his own Hold what will make him defend non-nords outside of Skyrim. Skyrim is full of diverse populations, if you're willing to only aid one race, you're unfit to rule.

 

[Ozan]

Asking if there was news isn't seeking foreign aid. Ulfric doesn't want to appear weak, so he would never ask for help while he doesn't control Skyrim, such as Season Unending. 'Not all the Jarls are fully committed to supporting me as High King. I can't afford to appear weak.'

Blindly commit more war crimes? Stormcloaks can hardly boast about Legion war crimes, not with their short history of only around twenty years already stained with war crimes.

Liberate a nation in need? You said it yourself 'Skyrim for the Nord' unless you're a Nord, what are you liberating? Freedom of racial segregation, Ulfric even refuses to send aid to the Khajiit caravans and non-Nord towns that have been raided by bandits, even though he is "the first to sound the horn" when Nord villages are being threatened. Hardly the traits of a future High King seeking alliances and treaties, if he won't defend non-nords in his own Hold what will make him defend non-nords outside of Skyrim. Skyrim is full of diverse populations, if you're willing to only aid one race, you're unfit to rule.

Ozan apologizes, he didn't say the Legion blindly followed orders. You did. Ozan assumes this is why they are so willing to kill the innocent, guilty of association with strangers... Seems the Thalmor are rubbing off on the Colovian.

The fact of the matter seems to be that a war crime is a war crime. One of the few which is witnessed.

However, so long as orders are followed, who cares? Not the Stormcloak, hence why they would receive any support at all

Tell Ozan. Was it right to kill a man for opening a door? No murder was committed, all viewed him as honorable until that day.

Well... there was one. But we are not discussing him right now.

Regardless, he opened a door. It lead to treason.

How can you rightly defend they who have no interests in the lives of the people... from the neck down, at least.

Now, Ozan was asked why he supports a regime which is quite racist. Like what you blabbering Colovian types blindly adhere to and swear upon. Ozan sees a much more vast enemy. The outbreak of an unneeded empire. Once the Thalmor are thusly defeated, what will the purpose of the empire be? Spread peace but allowing war? Equality while tolerating slavery and segregation?

Treaties are excuses for nobles. Rather, there is no point to the Empire, thus it need not exist. It claims it does so much yet in reality, it allows far worse.

No. Civilized peoples would perhaps prosper more without that broken machine.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ozan apologizes, he didn't say the Legion blindly followed orders. You did. Ozan assumes this is why they are so willing to kill the innocent, guilty of association with strangers... Seems the Thalmor are rubbing off on the Colovian.

The fact of the matter seems to be that a war crime is a war crime. One of the few which is witnessed.

However, so long as orders are followed, who cares? Not the Stormcloak, hence why they would receive any support at all

Tell Ozan. Was it right to kill a man for opening a door? No murder was committed, all viewed him as honorable until that day.

Well... there was one. But we are not discussing him right now.

Regardless, he opened a door. It lead to treason.

How can you rightly defend they who have no interests in the lives of the people... from the neck down, at least.

Now, Ozan was asked why he supports a regime which is quite racist. Like what you blabbering Colovian types blindly adhere to and swear upon. Ozan sees a much more vast enemy. The outbreak of an unneeded empire. Once the Thalmor are thusly defeated, what will the purpose of the empire be? Spread peace but allowing war? Equality while tolerating slavery and segregation?

Treaties are excuses for nobles. Rather, there is no point to the Empire, thus it need not exist. It claims it does so much yet in reality, it allows far worse.

No. Civilized peoples would perhaps prosper more without that broken machine.

I said the Legion follow orders without question, orders that aren't war crimes. When you have an army full of soldiers being driven by hate and anger, they are hardly going to listen to reason and are less willing to go along with peace and treaties when they all call for war.

Ulfric was guilty, he killed the High King no amount of going on about dueling will matter. Imperial law means you can't assassinate someone because you want their title, the killing of the High King who is a vassal of the Emperor is High Treason. He opened the gate to allow Ulfric to escape, he knew what he was doing because he didn't deny what he did was to let Ulfric escape, by Imperial law that makes you an accessory to the murder of the High King. If a murderer was running from police and you make sure he escapes, are you faced with no punishment?

The Empire allows war? The Empire is many provinces, Imperial authority isn't that high outside of Cyrodiil, while the Empire does try to spread racial equality and peace, not all provinces listen. Imperial authority comes and goes with each Emperor, such as all the wars during the Imperial Simulacrum that was when Imperial authority was at an all time low. You take a look at Skyrim and all the Holds, you're far from very strong Imperial influence to where everything is Nord controlled. You talk of Slavery and segregation? Slavery was banned by the Empire, it was only protected by a treaty in Morrowind which Tiber Septim signed, but how convenient you forget the safe haven for escape slaves was in Ebonheart inside the Argonian Mission. 'Castle Ebonheart is the seat of Imperial authority on Vvardenfell.'

You know in Windhelm the Argonians are basically slaves, they aren't paid full wages but paid very little because they aren't Nords. So perhaps you shouldn't talk much on racial segregation and slavery when you're blind to that around you.

Treaties are excuses for Nobles? The thousands that died for that treaty would disagree. Civilized people would prosper without the Empire? Take a good look at Windhelm, that is Skyrim without any Imperial authority, without any Empire. Killing a king for his title is civilized, near slavery of a race because they aren't Nord is civilized, racial segregation is civilized.

When Imperial authority is low, funny how all the Provinces are at each others throats and killings are at an all time high.

Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"

 

[Ozan]

Ozan will be honest. He does not care for Jarls. He does not care for Thanes. He simply does not care for kings. All his boasted and sheltered being is that of expense upon the people, as are all creatures of self appointed royalty. The fact that he died... well, the fact that he was "murdered" in ancient Nord rules of engagement, also known as a duel (it is in the rulebook, fair game by Ozan's magnificent eye), only means his death was horribly over glorified. Frankly, he died. We should celebrate, kick his body down a hill, feed it to nix hounds.

Ozan doesn't care. Much like you do not care for the peasant. A king is more important than a peasant because he is born and lives to get fat? Disgusting views.

Perhaps more grotesque is the thought that you assume I do not know of the conditions of Windhelm. Why does one not mention the Khajiit who are not allowed within gates and towns? Banned in Colovian held regions. That is Skyrim with the Empire, had Ulfric stopped caring before the High King, Windhelm would not have changed.

Don't lie to yourself. Colovian types claim the Holds govern themselves. Do not blame lack of Empire, not when nothing would have changed to if Ulfric was Colovian.

The Legion has their slander, their agenda, their bias, their war crimes, their denial... and perhaps now delusions that they are needed. Pity.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Ozan will be honest. He does not care for Jarls. He does not care for Thanes. He simply does not care for kings. All his boasted and sheltered being is that of expense upon the people, as are all creatures of self appointed royalty. The fact that he died... well, the fact that he was "murdered" in ancient Nord rules of engagement, also known as a duel (it is in the rulebook, fair game by Ozan's magnificent eye), only means his death was horribly over glorified. Frankly, he died. We should celebrate, kick his body down a hill, feed it to nix hounds.

Ozan doesn't care. Much like you do not care for the peasant. A king is more important than a peasant because he is born and lives to get fat? Disgusting views.

Perhaps more grotesque is the thought that you assume I do not know of the conditions of Windhelm. Why does one not mention the Khajiit who are not allowed within gates and towns? Banned in Colovian held regions. That is Skyrim with the Empire, had Ulfric stopped caring before the High King, Windhelm would not have changed.

Don't lie to yourself. Colovian types claim the Holds govern themselves. Do not blame lack of Empire, not when nothing would have changed to if Ulfric was Colovian.

The Legion has their slander, their agenda, their bias, their war crimes, their denial... and perhaps now delusions that they are needed. Pity.

I said a King is more important? Please show me where I said that. Khajiit are banned in Colovian held regions? I don't remember seeing any Khajiit being locked out of cities in Colovia... Oh right we're in Skyrim where you believe being a part of the Empire means Imperials are to blame for everything. Nord Jarls own the land, it is their land and they are allowed to say who is allowed inside their land. Considering the Jarl of Whiterun banned the Imperial Legion from entering until he was faced with attack seems to slip out of your mind. Imperial authority is that high, point me to a 'Colovian' in charge? Since you believe everything is Colovian ruled even though Colovia is only one part of Cyrodiil.

Holds do govern themselves... it is said in game. Now you're on about if Ulfric was from Colovia... Being a part of the Empire doesn't mean everything is perfect, Imperial authority depends on how things are going, in Skyrim I can tell you there isn't heaps of Imperial authority.

When Skyrim invaded High Rock and Hammerfell when Imperial authority was low, is that Colovian fault? For what Nords do?

You have issues with the Empire but if you stopped for one second and realize that you are NOT IN COLOVIA, then we can move forward. Nord cities are not Colovian held, so stop trying to delude yourself on that one. Show me an Imperial jarl, they're all Nords.

 

[feliciano182]

Good to have you here again Ozan, a little rigid as always, but your presence is always appreciated.

Proceed Drunkenmage.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Good to have you here again Ozan, a little rigid as always, but your presence is always appreciated.

Proceed Drunkenmage.

I'm thinking of giving up to be honest, no amount of logic and reason...

I might take a break from this thread.

 

[Ozan]

Seems Ozan is brushing upon tender flesh. He'll be gentle as he continues.

This one said without the Empire, the Argonian suffers. Then he acknowledges that they would suffer by claiming the Jarls govern their own land. If Ulfric supported the empire, never started a civil war, the Argonian would still suffer.

That is Ozan's point, how can you claim they will do something when you also claim they have no jurisdiction to do it?

Also, good to be back.