Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

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J

Jeremius

Guest
According to that logic every scenario you mention could happen. 'What if a goat becomes the new High King of Skyrim?'. Valid story because we are in a dream.
I think you have to draw a line somewhere and take a look at what is likely to happen or unlikely. I don't think that "everything is possible in a dream" means that whatever theory you have about Skyrim's future is decent.
Talos is a God according to TES lore. I explained above why.


Talos is a god, only because people believe. faith is a powerful thing. no faith means you would not pray at his shrine which means you would have him blessing you, which means he has no real power.

Daedric princes are the same way. Their power is only there if people believe and observe it.

I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream. I edited my post though, so I guess you were already quoting me when I added that to the original reply.
According to your logic a God is only a God when people believe in Him. So that would mean Allah, Buddah, Jaweh or the Christian God would only be Gods if a person acknowledges them? I don't think so.
If a God does not exist, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means he is a non-existing God. If you decide not to acknowledge a God, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means He is a God that is not acknowledged by you.
How many people pray each day to the Deity they believe in and ask Him for a favor? And how often do they actually get what they ask for? I don't think believing in a God would mean He automatically has an effect on you. If He has an effect that would prove his existence.
And of course people can experience thing because of the Placebo effect. They think something is true, and kind of create what they are believing in for themselves. And of course, if I pray to God for a better grade on my English exam, that doesn't mean that a good grade is a sign of Divine intervention. It could also mean I just studied very hard. But I am talking about an amulet that reduces the time between shouts with 20%. Or a shrine that cures you from whatever disease you have when you pray to it. ...That is not something we can create for ourselves...
In the Elder Scrolls the divines are real and Talos is real.


Faith is simple. gods do exist, but one will not believe in them if they have no faith in that god. simple as that.

Just because lore says he is a god, does not mean he magically has all the power in the world and can force his faith on people. Either people believe he is a god, or they do not. End of discussion.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Talos is a god, only because people believe. faith is a powerful thing. no faith means you would not pray at his shrine which means you would have him blessing you, which means he has no real power.

Daedric princes are the same way. Their power is only there if people believe and observe it.

I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream. I edited my post though, so I guess you were already quoting me when I added that to the original reply.
According to your logic a God is only a God when people believe in Him. So that would mean Allah, Buddah, Jaweh or the Christian God would only be Gods if a person acknowledges them? I don't think so.
If a God does not exist, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means he is a non-existing God. If you decide not to acknowledge a God, that doesn't mean He is not a God. It means He is a God that is not acknowledged by you.
How many people pray each day to the Deity they believe in and ask Him for a favor? And how often do they actually get what they ask for? I don't think believing in a God would mean He automatically has an effect on you. If He has an effect that would prove his existence.
And of course people can experience thing because of the Placebo effect. They think something is true, and kind of create what they are believing in for themselves. And of course, if I pray to God for a better grade on my English exam, that doesn't mean that a good grade is a sign of Divine intervention. It could also mean I just studied very hard. But I am talking about an amulet that reduces the time between shouts with 20%. Or a shrine that cures you from whatever disease you have when you pray to it. ...That is not something we can create for ourselves...
In the Elder Scrolls the divines are real and Talos is real.


Faith is simple. gods do exist, but one will not believe in them if they have no faith in that god. simple as that.

Can you give me a link where I can read that TES is happening in a Gods dream? You used that as an argument, but I can't find it anywhere on the internet. I would like to read about it.

In order to reply to this post, I will take a look at your previous post too:
faith is a powerful thing. no faith means you would not pray at his shrine which means you would have him blessing you, which means he has no real power.
This is an interesting quote of yours. What you say is that a God has no power if you don't believe in him. False. It means that he has no power over YOU. No power would mean he wouldn't have power over me either, but if I pray to his shrine I still get effects such as the reduced time between shouts. So he does have power. You just have to seek for it and acknowledge it in order to profit from it.

Your current post is an interesting one, because here you actually prove yourself wrong.
gods do exist, but one will not believe in them if they have no faith in that god. simple as that
Indeed. Gods do exist. But if you don't have faith in that God, you don't believe in him. And a God is nothing without religious people to worship him. I never said I disagree with that theory. It is actually true. But the point I was trying to make, is that Talos is a God. He exists. He is the 9th Divine. And if you don't believe in him, you don't have faith in him, like you said yourself.
If you don't go to his shrine, you won't be cured from all your diseases. If you don't wear his amulet, the time between shouts does not get reduced. That does not mean Talos is not a God, it means it is a God not worshiped by you. You not believing in him, does not change the Divines, Talos or the people who believe in him. It only affects you.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Anouck: and the point I am trying to make, is that Talos is only truly the 9th divine because people believe in him. No faith in him, and he has no power, so it would not matter what the lore said, as he would not be able to manifest anything onto Tamriel. God's dream or not, his power is based on faith. If you pray to him, he as power, if you do not, you do not see his power so it does not exist to you.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Anouck: and the point I am trying to make, is that Talos is only truly the 9th divine because people believe in him. No faith in him, and he has no power, so it would not matter what the lore said, as he would not be able to manifest anything onto Tamriel. God's dream or not, his power is based on faith. If you pray to him, he as power, if you do not, you do not see his power so it does not exist to you.

I asked for a link, Jeremius. You are not doing this for me, but for yourself. People in here tend to take arguments serious as long as they can be backed up. You have been ignoring my request for the last 3 or 4 posts.

I agree that a God needs worshipers to be truly powerful. But the fact that his amulet and shrine have an effect on the player, means he really is a God with actual powers.
Talos is not 'a fake God' because Jeremius decided not to worship him. If you decide not to worship him, that means that he is no God to you. But it doesn't mean that all of the sudden there are only 8 Gods in the pantheon.
According to your logic, the boss you are working for is not a boss if you don't listen to him. You completely forget that he is the leader of a company and more than 200 employees, and just claim that he is not in charge simply because you decided not to listen to the guy.

What you tend to do, is trying to argue something completely else than what other people are quoting you about.
In the previous debate you tried to prove DrunkenMage and me that it was morally wrong from the Empire to execute you, while the debate was about whether it was legal or not. We kept telling you it was morally wrong but the procedure was (sadly) legal. Yet the next reply of you was about it being morally wrong again.
I see you doing the same thing again. The debate is about whether or not Talos is an actual God. You keep telling me that he doesn't have an effect on you if you don't worship him. I think we've already established that? That was not what the debate was about. The debate was about Talos being a God, and he is. If you don't acknowledge him, that doesn't mean he is not a God. It means he is a God that is not acknowledged by you.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Anouck: and the point I am trying to make, is that Talos is only truly the 9th divine because people believe in him. No faith in him, and he has no power, so it would not matter what the lore said, as he would not be able to manifest anything onto Tamriel. God's dream or not, his power is based on faith. If you pray to him, he as power, if you do not, you do not see his power so it does not exist to you.

I asked for a link, Jeremius. You are not doing this for me, but for yourself. People in here tend to take arguments serious as long as they can be backed up. You have been ignoring my request for the last 3 or 4 posts.

I agree that a God needs worshipers to be truly powerful. But the fact that his amulet and shrine have an effect on the player, means he really is a God with actual powers.
Talos is not 'a fake God' because Jeremius decided not to worship him. If you decide not to worship him, that means that he is no God to you. But it doesn't mean that all of the sudden there are only 8 Gods in the pantheon.
According to your logic, the boss you are working for is not a boss if you don't listen to him. You completely forget that he is the leader of a company and more than 200 employees, and just claim that he is not in charge simply because you decided not to listen to the guy.

What you tend to do, is trying to argue something completely else than what other people are quoting you about.
In the previous debate you tried to prove DrunkenMage and me that it was morally wrong from the Empire to execute you, while the debate was about whether it was legal or not. We kept telling you it was morally wrong but the procedure was (sadly) legal. Yet the next reply of you was about it being morally wrong again.
I see you doing the same thing again. The debate is about whether or not Talos is an actual God. You keep telling me that he doesn't have an effect on you if you don't worship him. I think we've already established that? That was not what the debate was about. The debate was about Talos being a God, and he is. If you don't acknowledge him, that doesn't mean he is not a God. It means he is a God that is not acknowledged by you.


and YET, he would have no power if nobody believed. I agree that he would be a god. However, without faith, he would have no power to manifest anything onto Tamriel.

Like the legality of what the captain did. It was legal, but only because the PC was sentenced to death when they were put on the cart in the first place.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
Anouck: and the point I am trying to make, is that Talos is only truly the 9th divine because people believe in him. No faith in him, and he has no power, so it would not matter what the lore said, as he would not be able to manifest anything onto Tamriel. God's dream or not, his power is based on faith. If you pray to him, he as power, if you do not, you do not see his power so it does not exist to you.

I asked for a link, Jeremius. You are not doing this for me, but for yourself. People in here tend to take arguments serious as long as they can be backed up. You have been ignoring my request for the last 3 or 4 posts.

I agree that a God needs worshipers to be truly powerful. But the fact that his amulet and shrine have an effect on the player, means he really is a God with actual powers.
Talos is not 'a fake God' because Jeremius decided not to worship him. If you decide not to worship him, that means that he is no God to you. But it doesn't mean that all of the sudden there are only 8 Gods in the pantheon.
According to your logic, the boss you are working for is not a boss if you don't listen to him. You completely forget that he is the leader of a company and more than 200 employees, and just claim that he is not in charge simply because you decided not to listen to the guy.

What you tend to do, is trying to argue something completely else than what other people are quoting you about.
In the previous debate you tried to prove DrunkenMage and me that it was morally wrong from the Empire to execute you, while the debate was about whether it was legal or not. We kept telling you it was morally wrong but the procedure was (sadly) legal. Yet the next reply of you was about it being morally wrong again.
I see you doing the same thing again. The debate is about whether or not Talos is an actual God. You keep telling me that he doesn't have an effect on you if you don't worship him. I think we've already established that? That was not what the debate was about. The debate was about Talos being a God, and he is. If you don't acknowledge him, that doesn't mean he is not a God. It means he is a God that is not acknowledged by you.


and YET, he would have no power if nobody believed. I agree that he would be a god. However, without faith, he would have no power to manifest anything onto Tamriel.

Like the legality of what the captain did. It was legal, but only because the PC was sentenced to death when they were put on the cart in the first place.

this is the 5th time I am going to ask you for a link. Maybe I should type it like this? That way I would at least be sure that you'd read it. Attempt 5: can you show me the link to where you got that information from? Your argument is completely invalid if it can't be backed up.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I asked for a link, Jeremius. You are not doing this for me, but for yourself. People in here tend to take arguments serious as long as they can be backed up. You have been ignoring my request for the last 3 or 4 posts.

I agree that a God needs worshipers to be truly powerful. But the fact that his amulet and shrine have an effect on the player, means he really is a God with actual powers.
Talos is not 'a fake God' because Jeremius decided not to worship him. If you decide not to worship him, that means that he is no God to you. But it doesn't mean that all of the sudden there are only 8 Gods in the pantheon.
According to your logic, the boss you are working for is not a boss if you don't listen to him. You completely forget that he is the leader of a company and more than 200 employees, and just claim that he is not in charge simply because you decided not to listen to the guy.

What you tend to do, is trying to argue something completely else than what other people are quoting you about.
In the previous debate you tried to prove DrunkenMage and me that it was morally wrong from the Empire to execute you, while the debate was about whether it was legal or not. We kept telling you it was morally wrong but the procedure was (sadly) legal. Yet the next reply of you was about it being morally wrong again.
I see you doing the same thing again. The debate is about whether or not Talos is an actual God. You keep telling me that he doesn't have an effect on you if you don't worship him. I think we've already established that? That was not what the debate was about. The debate was about Talos being a God, and he is. If you don't acknowledge him, that doesn't mean he is not a God. It means he is a God that is not acknowledged by you.


and YET, he would have no power if nobody believed. I agree that he would be a god. However, without faith, he would have no power to manifest anything onto Tamriel.

Like the legality of what the captain did. It was legal, but only because the PC was sentenced to death when they were put on the cart in the first place.

this is the 5th time I am going to ask you for a link. Maybe I should type it like this? That way I would at least be sure that you'd read it. Attempt 5: can you show me the link to where you got that information from? Your argument is completely invalid if it can't be backed up.


I never said he would not be a god. Just that without people worshiping him, he'd be an incredibly silent one.
 

Gigapact

Lollygagging Milk Drinker (according to guards)
Talos, as we all know, was not a God. I don't worship people. Hell no. I don't even worship a God anyhow.

I agree with a lot of the stuff that has been said in your post - Except for the tiny little part I just quoted.

You may think it is lame that a person becomes a deity after his death (I can totally understand that), but Talos is an actual ingame God. If he wouldn't be real, his shrine wouldn't cure diseases and his amulet wouldn't have any effect on us. We don't see him in the Hall of Valor either when you visit Sovngarde. I mean, all the heroes mentioned in the game are there. Except for Talos. Why? Because he is a God and doesn't live amongst men in the afterlife.

Yet the Aldmeri Domion wants the worship of Talos to be banned. To understand that, we must first understand that the Aldmeri religion forms the basis for most of the other religious practices on the continent, primarily due to its widespread acceptance prior to the advent of human civilization.
The Aldmeri Dominion thinks that acknowledging a mortal as a deity is a violation of their pantheon.

I personally believe in freedom of religion. A person should be able to worship a turd, if that makes him happy. But I agree with you 100% that the White-Gold Concordat was the best thing to do at that time under those circumstances.


You have a good point there, especially with Talos not being in Sovngarde. I never thought about that.

I also believe in freedom of religion, I was just saying I would never worship a person. I really don't worship anything... oh well. Guess I'll be going to hell to burn for an eternity, if there is one.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
and YET, he would have no power if nobody believed. I agree that he would be a god. However, without faith, he would have no power to manifest anything onto Tamriel.

Like the legality of what the captain did. It was legal, but only because the PC was sentenced to death when they were put on the cart in the first place.

this is the 5th time I am going to ask you for a link. Maybe I should type it like this? That way I would at least be sure that you'd read it. Attempt 5: can you show me the link to where you got that information from? Your argument is completely invalid if it can't be backed up.


I never said he would not be a god. Just that without people worshiping him, he'd be an incredibly silent one.

fhdsY7u.gif

could you please show me a link to the source of this information? (The whole TES being a dream thing. I'd like to read that)
I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream.

:p Jeremius, my dear friend, I was not talking about the God thing. I was talking about the very first argument you mentioned.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
this is the 5th time I am going to ask you for a link. Maybe I should type it like this? That way I would at least be sure that you'd read it. Attempt 5: can you show me the link to where you got that information from? Your argument is completely invalid if it can't be backed up.


I never said he would not be a god. Just that without people worshiping him, he'd be an incredibly silent one.

fhdsY7u.gif

could you please show me a link to the source of this information? (The whole TES being a dream thing. I'd like to read that)
I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream.

:p Jeremius, my dear friend, I was not talking about the God thing. I was talking about the very first argument you mentioned.


and I moved on from that because it was a joke argument.
 

Anouck

Queen of Procrastination
I never said he would not be a god. Just that without people worshiping him, he'd be an incredibly silent one.

fhdsY7u.gif

could you please show me a link to the source of this information? (The whole TES being a dream thing. I'd like to read that)
I asked if you had a link with information about TES being a dream.

:p Jeremius, my dear friend, I was not talking about the God thing. I was talking about the very first argument you mentioned.


and I moved on from that because it was a joke argument.

sJr03C0.gif
 

Snake-Brother282

The Saxhleel Slayer
I don't like either of them, but if I had to pick one, I'd go with the Imperials. I'm not fond of the Stormcloaks ... they're like medieval hillbillies.

I tend to agree, the stormcloaks just seem too shortsighted, not to mention that the racial interolerance gets really old really fast. It's mildly reassuring to know that at least the Empire operates with the big picture in mind
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
I don't like either of them, but if I had to pick one, I'd go with the Imperials. I'm not fond of the Stormcloaks ... they're like medieval hillbillies.

I tend to agree, the stormcloaks just seem too shortsighted, not to mention that the racial interolerance gets really old really fast. It's mildly reassuring to know that at least the Empire operates with the big picture in mind


I would choose imps purely because I do not like how dull windhelm is with Ulfric in charge.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
This thread is still going for one? Two it has been a very long time, I remember the long nights we would all spend debating in here. Also I'M BACK! AND I HAVE MY FAVORITE DEBATE OPPONENT LINED UP ALREADY!
We have, for over a year now debated this point of yours Raijin, for the history of this thread we have discussed this defense of yours to defend Ulfric Stormcloak's cause, the True Usurper of The High Throne of Skyrim.


As we all know, the High King answered to the Empire, whose laws override those of Skyrim, when the Ulfric committed treason by the laws of the Empire he was sentenced to death, he was captured you were too close, they decide to kill all of you because Tamril does not practice due process at all really that I have seen. Dragon attacks, you escape. We know the story.


The Empire had a military officer sentence you to death, a soldier. A woman paid to follow and give orders to kill any and all perceived threats in the defense of the Empire. Would you rather let a possible enemy go to kill your people? No. You would kill them. I am sure if their were less stormcloaks captured, there is a small chance they would not have gone straight to execution, maybe even have a trial, but Ulfric was a danger to the Empire, he was making an effort to kill the Legion, who likely had friendships among its soldiers. So many soldiers were likely angry for that, not to mention a man like Ulfric, who is a formidable warrior, tactician, and charismatic leader, likely was hard to capture and cost some lives to chain and gag. Men and women doing their jobs died at Ulfrics hands. I wonder how many of them were Nords?


Now so the Empire has an issue, they are angry over the war and death which Ulfric began. They are wounded by the Great War. They are forced to allow Thalmor Agents to operate within their borders, and are otherwise feeling rather beaten. Ulfric and all who back him pose a threat, how do you solve a threat to the security of your nation? You take off its head. Sadly your head is mistaken as part of the number which need their heads removed. Does the Empire enjoy killing people? I highly doubt it. Is it a necessity for their current situation? Yes. Are there other solutions? Yes, but considering the political style of the Empire I do not see any that would be in active use. The laws are laws, and so as a soldier of the Empire the officer who decided to behead you determined that her job is to protect the Empire and enforce its laws chose to do so, and that duty means ordering people to be executed. Ulfric likely had to make the same decision before when he was in the Legion.


I guess I should be thankful for you to pick me as your first “opponent”, especially slight in the fact that my original post that you've quoted in response to Drunkenmage was clearly meant to be a joke, and not meant to be taken seriously.

Anyhow shall we start with the serious debate, my opponent friend :)

I acknowledge that what Ulfric Stormcloak did was against Imperial laws and the Legion have every right to capture him and his followers, and execute them all for high treason against the Empire. I'm not going to sit back and debate against it, however Ulfric does have a legit complaint that the Empire has proven to themselves to be too weak, and therefor in Ulfric's eyes, and the eyes of others who are his followers, the Empire is deem unfit to rule his homeland. He went from fighting for his Empire to now fighting against it. If the Empire was strong and was healthy then they would've pile drove the Dominion out of their country, and win the Great war without signing the WGC.


What the Woman officer did back in Helgan was not a best representation of the Legion, especially when it comes to new players like myself, at the time. If this kind of practice is quite common then the Legion is going to continue to lose support from their Imperial citizens. They're suppose to protect their imperial citizens, not to snatch them up and use the “oh they might be a potential threat” and therefor execute them. This causes an uproar against the citizen's as those who they execute have families and friends that becomes disgruntled. If you poke around in the beehive eventually you will get stung by a bunch of angry swarming bees.

From a long time ago, DrunkenMage pointed me out on Ufric's Thalmor's dossier that the Thalmor was trying to stop his execution from happening back in Helgan, which explained why the Thalmor Ambassador was there on her horse. Did Tullius get bought out by the Thalmor? Shouldn't Ulfric be executed first? Instead they executed 1 of his Stormcloak men, and then attempted to execute the player.
 

DrunkenMage

Intoxicated Arch-Mage
You realize that TES is essentially a god's dream right? That means anything can and does happen.

No.

Pronged Pickle: There is a principle. The law says we are guilty UNTIL proven innocent. How can we be truly guilty of a crime with no chance to prove our innocence? The law is clear but it only applies when actually accused of a crime punishable by prison time. being sent to the block magically has no until proven innocent shot.

Your word isn't accepted as evidence, especially on crimes such as treason against the Empire. Being sent to the block doesn't magically make it have no innocent shot, your character only had their word. Nothing else.

I acknowledge that what Ulfric Stormcloak did was against Imperial laws and the Legion have every right to capture him and his followers, and execute them all for high treason against the Empire. I'm not going to sit back and debate against it, however Ulfric does have a legit complaint that the Empire has proven to themselves to be too weak, and therefor in Ulfric's eyes, and the eyes of others who are his followers, the Empire is deem unfit to rule his homeland. He went from fighting for his Empire to now fighting against it. If the Empire was strong and was healthy then they would've pile drove the Dominion out of their country, and win the Great war without signing the WGC.

The Empire wasn't strong and healthy after the Great War. At the end of the war, they had lost three entire Legions and the rest were down to half strength. If the Empire had a full strong force of 18 Legions, they only had enough Legionnaires to fill 7.5 Legions. The Empire most likely didn't have the full 18 Legions, they could of possibly had only 10 Legions (The highest number mentioned in the Great War) that would mean they only had 3.5 full Legions at the end of the war. Not enough in either case to continue the war.

The White-Gold Concordat was needed, it was needed to rebuild and regain strength. The Empire got it's ass kicked in the Great War, but it also gave them the focus they needed. They're preparing for a large scale war, the final war.

Many Nords understood the need for peace, High King Istlod (whom Ulfric calls a true High King) also understood the need for peace when he accepted the White-Gold Concordat for Skyrim.

The Civil War is a distraction, it's merely an interlude for what is to happen between the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion. It is easy to call the Empire weak and unworthy, but Nords have never been fair weathered friends. If they're going to abandon the Empire at it's lowest point, then the thousands of Nords that died in the Great War sacrificed themselves for nothing.

The Empire was never going to win the Great War, Titus knew this, his Generals knew this. But the Empire met them on the field the battle, they weren't going to take plops cause of the mere threat of war. Even a weakened Empire managed to be victorious over a strong Aldmeri Dominion. You will often get people in here saying the Empire will abandon you the second Cyrodiil is threatened. That is untrue, the Empire fought in Hammerfell until all the Legions were recalled for the Battle of the Red Ring, in the final year of the war.

After the war, the Empire had to recover a lot. Now you may ask why it is taking so long, that is because like in the Civil War. Criminals, bandits, evil wizards etc. They took advantage, there were outbreaks of violence throughout Cyrodiil. Wayrest was lost in High Rock.

The White-Gold Concordat is in favor of the Aldmeri Dominion, why? Because the Empire went to them for peace. If someone came to you after you fought them in a war, asking for peace. Are you going to make peace in their favor, or yours?

The Empire may seem weak in Skyrim, Tullius isn't getting reinforcements. He just lost an entire garrison. Tullius is going to get reinforced, Pale Pass was closed and is being cleared by the Empire. The Legion has regained much strength, with enough personnel to assemble a new Imperial force to go into Skyrim after Pale Pass is cleared. They have enough personnel to escort trade shipments into their nation.

What the Woman officer did back in Helgan was not a best representation of the Legion, especially when it comes to new players like myself, at the time. If this kind of practice is quite common then the Legion is going to continue to lose support from their Imperial citizens. They're suppose to protect their imperial citizens, not to snatch them up and use the “oh they might be a potential threat” and therefor execute them. This causes an uproar against the citizen's as those who they execute have families and friends that becomes disgruntled. If you poke around in the beehive eventually you will get stung by a bunch of angry swarming bees.

The situation at Helgen is the Empire being desperate. Tullius believes the Thalmor are to blame for this uprising, that they stirred up trouble in Skyrim. To cause the Empire to waste resources and man power. The execution, wasn't the finest hour of the Empire. It was their desperate hour. They simply cannot take the chance, they need this rebellion crushed and order restored so they can get back to facing the real enemy.

While Tullius isn't the most friendliest or respectful man towards the Nords, he's also just as angry as Ulfric is. He's angry about this rebellion, but he's also angry about the Thalmor. He hates the Thalmor so much, he himself talks about almost wanting to join the Stormcloaks because of what the Thalmor make the Empire look like. Throwing their parties to make the Empire look bad, forcing Tullius to be there at times.

Everyone has families who are torn apart by this Civil War. How many Legionnaires have family, have friends. The Legion doesn't take pride in executions, it never has, but it is something that has to be done to send a clear message.

From a long time ago, DrunkenMage pointed me out on Ufric's Thalmor's dossier that the Thalmor was trying to stop his execution from happening back in Helgan, which explained why the Thalmor Ambassador was there on her horse. Did Tullius get bought out by the Thalmor? Shouldn't Ulfric be executed first? Instead they executed 1 of his Stormcloak men, and then attempted to execute the player.

Tullius would never get bought by the Thalmor, he hates them with a passion. He talks about war with them, he even says he considered joining the Stormcloaks because he hates the Thalmor so much.

One of Ulfric's men rushed forward to the block, you were called next. It was most likely they were saving Ulfric till last. Sending a powerful message by him watching his men die, then him being killed and his head goes to Cyrodiil (I know you call it disrespectful, but it's to send a message not only to Skyrim, it sends a message to all in the Empire.)
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage: All I know is that I got caught in an ambush and put on the cart. They mention nothing other than that. They have nothing because they wrote the game to be based around the player being mistaken purely for the stromcloak. you have no clue we had nothing on us when they caught us in the first place.
 

NENALATA

Last King of the Ayleids - RETIRED
DrunkenMage: All I know is that I got caught in an ambush and put on the cart. They mention nothing other than that. They have nothing because they wrote the game to be based around the player being mistaken purely for the stromcloak. you have no clue we had nothing on us when they caught us in the first place.


Has anyone... taken the time to stop and consider the possibility that you *were* indeed a criminal and deserving of death? I know that's a hard pill to swallow because Hadvar had no idea who you were... just a thought.

Furthermore, can we not simply conclude that your near execution was simply an honest mistake? Circumstance permits because:

1) This is a Civil War and Skyrim is under Martial Law; Hence, Tullius is the Military Gov. And as such, summary executions are permitted.

2) If you're known by the company you keep... then it could be surmised from reasonable person's point of view, that you had business with the Stormcloaks near the border.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
DrunkenMage: All I know is that I got caught in an ambush and put on the cart. They mention nothing other than that. They have nothing because they wrote the game to be based around the player being mistaken purely for the stromcloak. you have no clue we had nothing on us when they caught us in the first place.


Has anyone... taken the time to stop and consider the possibility that you *were* indeed a criminal and deserving of death? I know that's a hard pill to swallow because Hadvar had no idea who you were... just a thought.


perhaps. but they never mention anything other than being on the cart with rebels bound for death because we are sentenced to death for treason because law is incredibly stupid.

what happens in Helgen is legal, but what happened before that, what happened at the ambush is what I have questioned in my mind.
 
J

Jeremius

Guest
Maybe "illegally" crossing the border is punished by death?

In order to not get involved in an argument with DrunkenMage again, I will simply go with this. sounds more logical anyways.
 
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