Reading the White-Gold Concordat, I think Ulfric is right

[CaptMorgan72]

I was reading up on the treaty and learned the history behind Hammerfell and their fight against the Aldmeri without help from the Empire. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell because of their refusal to give up so much territory to the Aldmeri. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill. I can easily see Ulfric leading Skyrim to an alliance with Hammerfell and the Nords and Redguards defeating the Aldmeri and then dismantling the Empire. After learning this, I understand Ulfric's motives better and I find myself agreeing with him now. Here is the info:

The Concordat's terms also included the cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, which dictated a complete withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province.

 

[Majir-Dar]

What you're not taking into consideration are the civilians. Hammerfell got to fight back so well because their civilians are trained at young ages (10 years old or something) at the art of warfare. Imperials couldn't help defend Hammerfell because the rest of the Empire was still recuperating. Not only that Titus Mede didn't know how strong the Dominion still was. To defeat the Dominion the whole Empire would have to stand together. Not only that but Hammerfell and Skyrim couldn't take down the Empire and the Dominion. If they broke away from the Empire and defeated the Dominion than the Empire would just crush them before they could recuperate. Or if they attacked the Empire the Dominion would just crush them after that.

 

[CaptMorgan72]

The Empire didn't help Hammerfell because it would have violated the treaty. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill, granted the forces of the Aldmeri were weakened from the war with the Empire, but they fought so well that the Aldmeri had to withdraw from Hammerfell. It is in the Empire's best interest for Ulfric to become High King of Skyrim and withdraw from the Empire. The fact that they oppose this, is proof that the Empire has become corrupted or infiltrated by the Aldmeri. Think about it, if Skyrim became independent then whatever they do is not the responsibility of the Empire. Ulfric's best move would be to unite with Hammerfell and march into Summerset Isles and lay waste to the Aldmeri. They could do it without doubt. With a little planning the Empire could help Ulfric defeat the Aldmeri for good. The fact that they tried to kill Ulfric is proof that the Empire needs to be destroyed as well. I have no doubt that Skyrim united with Hammerfell could fight this two front war and win.

 

[Majir-Dar]

Ulfric doesn't care about peace, he wants all the power. If and only if, Skyrim had a decent High King than I would say go ahead and be independent, but they had better be prepared to join the Empire after their war with the Thalmor. Ulfric is NOT a good leader, he is racist, corrupt, and foolish. Now imagine a united Empire with Skyrim and Hammerfell included, less casualties and more man power. There is no way in Oblivion that Hammerfell and Skyrim could fight off both the Empire and the Thalmor for the reasons I stated above. Remember that the Empire still holds Morrowind, High Rock, Black Marsh, and the Orcs would help too. Do you really think that Hammerfell and Skyrim could fight these provinces off and the Thalmor (Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Summerset Isles)?

 

[Rimfaxe96]

The way I see it, Titus Mede didn't realize that no matter what, the Thalmor mustn't be given the opportunity to get footing on the mainland, not to mention land populated largely by humans.
I think the fact that the Mede's have shown little to no sign of great leadership has been obvious so far, but that's not up for debate. But he needed the treaty to keep the Empire alive and most importantly keep his throne. If there was no treaty, the Empire would have been crushed. After all it took Hammerfell 5 years to fight them to a standstill; not a defeat.
We don't have any sources about how Alinor went on after the Great War, but the way I see it they've been using the time to regain new resources for warfare and of course raise their numbers as good as possible (if you read the letter of Elenwen to Sanyon, a Thalmor laying dead at the Shrine of Talos near Lakeview Manor/east of the lake near Falkreath, she says that her men are "spread thin enough"; guess the Dominion wants to keep their soldiers at home for a reason?). That theory is only supported by one of the Jarls at Diplomatic Immunity saying that he heard rumors that the Thalmor are gathering their strength to launch another attack.

Should Skyrim become independent, the Empire looses the source of some of its best soldiers, and High Rock will be cut off Cyrodiil, making communication difficult. I don't want to defend this damned concordat or anything it represents, but if the people of Skyrim don't stay put, and Cyrodiil is taken by the Dominion, things are going to get bad real quick. And real bad.
Corrupted politicians can easily be killed, but if the Empire falls, I don't see who's going to keep the Altmer from erasing humanity of Nirn's surface.

Another theory of course could be that the Dominion is struggling with inner conflicts themselves, their forces only held up in numbers by forceful recruiting and their populace partly starving themselves because all food and resources goes to the army... but that's up for debate, too. Especially since they are the biggest economic power in Tamriel as well. And as Lathenil wrote, many Altmer embraced the Thalmors' ideology (is that much of a surprise though? Altmer have been known to think of themselves as the perfect race, the perfect society; and thus logically the rightful rulers of Tamriel, no?), so recruitment shouldn't be too tricky. Not to mention all the Altmer that might want revenge for their fallen fathers, friends and so on.

There's just not enough information given to make 100%-true conclusions. Both parties have plenty of grey areas. And while Ulfrics' goal, to see the Thalmor bleeding as much as the people kidnapped into their concentration camps, might be noble and right, we don't know enough about him either.
Plenty of his behavior has shown that while he talks his men into glory-or-death-battle-deaths, his own willpower can't keep up with that. To be honest, I believe that there's a certain amount of fear behind that too. Doesn't want to see his country going down along with Cyrodiil should the Dominion crush the Legion. I really hope he's not one of those rats leaving the sinking ship like my guts tell me.

Remember that the Empire still holds Morrowind, High Rock, Black Marsh, and the Orcs would help too. Do you really think that Hammerfell and Skyrim could fight these provinces off and the Thalmor (Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Summerset Isles)?

Right now, the Empire consists only of Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock. Black Marsh and large parts of Morrowind are under Argonian rule, and what's left of the country to remain being called Morrowind is currently independent, in a way. "Abandoned" would fit better though.
And no, I doubt the Orcs would help. They keep to themselves or simply state that "it's not their fight".

 

[CaptMorgan72]

I disagree about Ulfric. I don't think he is corrupt and power hungry. He is racist though, but I suppose I would be too if elves invaded my country and did unspeakable things to the populace. He is a patriot that feels that the Empire he fought for has died. He loves his homeland and only wishes to see it ruled by Nords that do not bend a knee to the elves. I think Ulfric would make a great leader for the Nords, for Skyrim. I completely disagree with you that Ulfric doesn't want peace, he does, in Skyrim. He wants nothing more than for the Empire and the Aldmeri to leave Skyrim and her people alone. I do believe that Skyrim and Hammerfell could win a two front war with the Empire and the Aldmeri. Hammerfell alone fought the forces of Valenwood, Elsweyr and Summerset Isles to a standstill. I believe that the Redguards and the Nords are the most powerful warriors in all of Tamriel. Together and united they could do it. They would almost be destroyed in the process, but they could do it.

 

[Majir-Dar]

I disagree about Ulfric. I don't think he is corrupt and power hungry. He is racist though, but I suppose I would be too if elves invaded my country and did unspeakable things to the populace. He is a patriot that feels that the Empire he fought for has died. He loves his homeland and only wishes to see it ruled by Nords that do not bend a knee to the elves. I think Ulfric would make a great leader for the Nords, for Skyrim. I completely disagree with you that Ulfric doesn't want peace, he does, in Skyrim. He wants nothing more than for the Empire and the Aldmeri to leave Skyrim and her people alone. I do believe that Skyrim and Hammerfell could win a two front war with the Empire and the Aldmeri. Hammerfell alone fought the forces of Valenwood, Elsweyr and Summerset Isles to a standstill. I believe that the Redguards and the Nords are the most powerful warriors in all of Tamriel. Together and united they could do it. They would almost be destroyed in the process, but they could do it.

You're putting all the mer together, it was the THALMOR that did all the murdering. The fact that Ulfric would make a good leader for Nords is undisputed, but there are several different races. You just can not be good to one race and then bad to almost 10 others. And again, Hammerfell and Skyrim just doesn't have enough people to defeat the Empire and the Dominion. Even in the Empire's weakened state they would have more than enough soldiers, professionally trained, to stomp Hammerfell and Skyrim out of existence. Also, do you think that Skyrim and Hammerfell would actually risk the destruction of their land and people?

 

[HappyFaceClown]

I was reading up on the treaty and learned the history behind Hammerfell and their fight against the Aldmeri without help from the Empire. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell because of their refusal to give up so much territory to the Aldmeri. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill. I can easily see Ulfric leading Skyrim to an alliance with Hammerfell and the Nords and Redguards defeating the Aldmeri and then dismantling the Empire. After learning this, I understand Ulfric's motives better and I find myself agreeing with him now. Here is the info:

The Concordat's terms also included the cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, which dictated a complete withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province.

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor. Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him. Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

 

[Majir-Dar]

I was reading up on the treaty and learned the history behind Hammerfell and their fight against the Aldmeri without help from the Empire. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell because of their refusal to give up so much territory to the Aldmeri. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill. I can easily see Ulfric leading Skyrim to an alliance with Hammerfell and the Nords and Redguards defeating the Aldmeri and then dismantling the Empire. After learning this, I understand Ulfric's motives better and I find myself agreeing with him now. Here is the info:

The Concordat's terms also included the cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, which dictated a complete withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province.

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor. Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him. Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

The Empire has done so many bad things in the name of peace. It's only natural that an age old empire would have collected a few bad rulers and so forth, but I assure you if Yarl Ulfric were High King the other races would be kicked out or killed, or at least segregated. Can you please share with me some of the bad things the Empire has done that they weren't forced to do. They had to sign the White Gold Concordant because they would risk more civilians. Don't make any mistake, however, both sides are gearing up for the 2nd Great War. My only question is this, are they going to fight it alone or will Skyrim and the others put aside their petty disagreements to wipe out the tyranny that is the Thalmor. If Skyrim truly rebelled and took down the Thalmor and the Empire, do you know how much chaos would ensue? Look at Rome, when they fell, the Dark Ages began. There was a whole age where people were ruled by land owners and Churches (not that all the Churches were bad of course). Would you really rather have the Empire fall and a Dark Age occur? The Empire isn't perfect but it's the best chance Tamriel has at a government.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

I was reading up on the treaty and learned the history behind Hammerfell and their fight against the Aldmeri without help from the Empire. The Empire abandoned Hammerfell because of their refusal to give up so much territory to the Aldmeri. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill. I can easily see Ulfric leading Skyrim to an alliance with Hammerfell and the Nords and Redguards defeating the Aldmeri and then dismantling the Empire. After learning this, I understand Ulfric's motives better and I find myself agreeing with him now. Here is the info:

The Concordat's terms also included the cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion. Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, which dictated a complete withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province.

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor. Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him. Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

The Empire has done so many bad things in the name of peace. It's only natural that an age old empire would have collected a few bad rulers and so forth, but I assure you if Yarl Ulfric were High King the other races would be kicked out or killed, or at least segregated. Can you please share with me some of the bad things the Empire has done that they weren't forced to do. They had to sign the White Gold Concordant because they would risk more civilians. Don't make any mistake, however, both sides are gearing up for the 2nd Great War. My only question is this, are they going to fight it alone or will Skyrim and the others put aside their petty disagreements to wipe out the tyranny that is the Thalmor. If Skyrim truly rebelled and took down the Thalmor and the Empire, do you know how much chaos would ensue? Look at Rome, when they fell, the Dark Ages began. There was a whole age where people were ruled by land owners and Churches (not that all the Churches were bad of course). Would you really rather have the Empire fall and a Dark Age occur? The Empire isn't perfect but it's the best chance Tamriel has at a government.

What all bad things has the empire done which they weren't forced? lmao omg i got a chuckle at reading that... but i'm guessing your actually being serious so where do i begin? How bout the very first screen of the game!? Ya know? Where they're attempting to cut your head off for simply "existing" in there land? Jeez man the opening scene even depicts how evil they are!! Yet u guys still insist there these holy good guys, lol I can't really blame u tho cuz your judgement is clouded with all the "b..b..b..b..but ulfric is a racist" fanclub hypocrites who don't even observe the actual story. Ulfric isn't a racist ok, he merely holds harsh bitter feelings towards a "species" not a race who is attempting to conquer and enslave his people, let me ask you a question, how would u feel if one day your country was invaded by an army of vicious beings who sought to change your entire way of life and murder anyone who resisted? Would u not hold just a tiny little bit of discord for that species? Not to mention the traitors who would literally side with them! "imperials" Including the ones who weren't responsible? After all how do u know there not secretly working for them? In times like that it would be extremely hard to trust any of them, hopefully we can at least agree on that? And if so then that contradicts your claim.

 

[Majir-Dar]

Not only is Yarl Ulfric correct and noble in his actions but he's also the only one with the balls to make a stand against the empire and thalmor, basically he's trying to save his people from being conquered, and the only reason he's at war with the imperial legion is because the cowards are allied with the thalmor. Sure he's done some terrible things but there childs play compared to the bad things the empire has done, the only argument i ever hear with any credibility on the side of those who disagree is the "Bear of Markarth" book which proves nothing if u consider the source of the author, anybody could have wrote that, perhaps even tullius himself wrote it to demonize him. Anyways, this is why even tho i never mess with the civil war quests on this game i highly admire Ulfric for standing up against the thalmor and there imperial coward allies. Yarl Ulfric reminds me of William Wallace in the movie "Braveheart" if you've ever seen it, he just wants freedom for his people, one of my favorite movies. Watch it and you'll see the resemblance of the two, the thalmor are a lot like the English army in that movie.

The Empire has done so many bad things in the name of peace. It's only natural that an age old empire would have collected a few bad rulers and so forth, but I assure you if Yarl Ulfric were High King the other races would be kicked out or killed, or at least segregated. Can you please share with me some of the bad things the Empire has done that they weren't forced to do. They had to sign the White Gold Concordant because they would risk more civilians. Don't make any mistake, however, both sides are gearing up for the 2nd Great War. My only question is this, are they going to fight it alone or will Skyrim and the others put aside their petty disagreements to wipe out the tyranny that is the Thalmor. If Skyrim truly rebelled and took down the Thalmor and the Empire, do you know how much chaos would ensue? Look at Rome, when they fell, the Dark Ages began. There was a whole age where people were ruled by land owners and Churches (not that all the Churches were bad of course). Would you really rather have the Empire fall and a Dark Age occur? The Empire isn't perfect but it's the best chance Tamriel has at a government.

What all bad things has the empire done which they weren't forced? lmao omg i got a chuckle at reading that... but i'm guessing your actually being serious so where do i begin? How bout the very first screen of the game!? Ya know? Where they're attempting to cut your head off for simply "existing" in there land? Jeez man the opening scene even depicts how evil they are!! Yet u guys still insist there these holy good guys, lol I can't really blame u tho cuz your judgement is clouded with all the "b..b..b..b..but ulfric is a racist" fanclub hypocrites who don't even observe the actual story. Ulfric isn't a racist ok, he merely holds harsh bitter feelings towards a "species" not a race who is attempting to conquer and enslave his people, let me ask you a question, how would u feel if one day your country was invaded by an army of vicious beings who sought to change your entire way of life and murder anyone who resisted? Would u not hold just a tiny little bit of discord for that species? Not to mention the traitors who would literally side with them! "imperials" Including the ones who weren't responsible? After all how do u know there not secretly working for them? In times like that it would be extremely hard to trust any of them, hopefully we can at least agree on that? And if so then that contradicts your claim.

Okay... well you don't have to be fl*ffing douch about it, God man seriously. Anyways, I am merely looking at what I know. The Empire is massive, it is absolutely impossible to be a 100% holy Empire. Maybe you're just an unbelievably blind Ulfric supporter. To answer your question, yes, I would hold a grudge towards the faction that decided to invade my country, but not the whole species/place that started it. Ulfric segregated the Dunmer, a race that was neutral throughout the Civil War and they were on the side of the Empire not the Thalmor.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

The Empire has done so many bad things in the name of peace. It's only natural that an age old empire would have collected a few bad rulers and so forth, but I assure you if Yarl Ulfric were High King the other races would be kicked out or killed, or at least segregated. Can you please share with me some of the bad things the Empire has done that they weren't forced to do. They had to sign the White Gold Concordant because they would risk more civilians. Don't make any mistake, however, both sides are gearing up for the 2nd Great War. My only question is this, are they going to fight it alone or will Skyrim and the others put aside their petty disagreements to wipe out the tyranny that is the Thalmor. If Skyrim truly rebelled and took down the Thalmor and the Empire, do you know how much chaos would ensue? Look at Rome, when they fell, the Dark Ages began. There was a whole age where people were ruled by land owners and Churches (not that all the Churches were bad of course). Would you really rather have the Empire fall and a Dark Age occur? The Empire isn't perfect but it's the best chance Tamriel has at a government.

What all bad things has the empire done which they weren't forced? lmao omg i got a chuckle at reading that... but i'm guessing your actually being serious so where do i begin? How bout the very first screen of the game!? Ya know? Where they're attempting to cut your head off for simply "existing" in there land? Jeez man the opening scene even depicts how evil they are!! Yet u guys still insist there these holy good guys, lol I can't really blame u tho cuz your judgement is clouded with all the "b..b..b..b..but ulfric is a racist" fanclub hypocrites who don't even observe the actual story. Ulfric isn't a racist ok, he merely holds harsh bitter feelings towards a "species" not a race who is attempting to conquer and enslave his people, let me ask you a question, how would u feel if one day your country was invaded by an army of vicious beings who sought to change your entire way of life and murder anyone who resisted? Would u not hold just a tiny little bit of discord for that species? Not to mention the traitors who would literally side with them! "imperials" Including the ones who weren't responsible? After all how do u know there not secretly working for them? In times like that it would be extremely hard to trust any of them, hopefully we can at least agree on that? And if so then that contradicts your claim.

Okay... well you don't have to be fl*ffing douch about it, God man seriously. Anyways, I am merely looking at what I know. The Empire is massive, it is absolutely impossible to be a 100% holy Empire. Maybe you're just an unbelievably blind Ulfric supporter. To answer your question, yes, I would hold a grudge towards the faction that decided to invade my country, but not the whole species/place that started it. Ulfric segregated the Dunmer, a race that was neutral throughout the Civil War and they were on the side of the Empire not the Thalmor.

Dude i'm not trying to sound like a douche, sorry if it came off that way, i just get tired of posting proof after proof on the subject here and still being denied, this whole topic has been done to death on these forums "there's even an entire flame thread which has over 600 replies on it based on the subject" that is insane! and tbh it gets old, hence why i don't even bother posting my 2 cents on the topic that often. The truth is its all how u choose to look at it, even the most evil of rulers can be visualized as "noble" in there actions if u try hard enough to believe it, but this whole "anyone who likes Ulfric is a racist" thing is for the birds man! People seem to forget that its just a game, i could tell you the "actual" reason people have labeled Ulfric a racist but if i did so i'd be trolled relentlessly on here by politically correct morons who hate to hear the truth. So i'll just say this, its "your" gaming experience so as long as you're having fun with it then believe whichever side is just that u choose.

 

[Majir-Dar]

What all bad things has the empire done which they weren't forced? lmao omg i got a chuckle at reading that... but i'm guessing your actually being serious so where do i begin? How bout the very first screen of the game!? Ya know? Where they're attempting to cut your head off for simply "existing" in there land? Jeez man the opening scene even depicts how evil they are!! Yet u guys still insist there these holy good guys, lol I can't really blame u tho cuz your judgement is clouded with all the "b..b..b..b..but ulfric is a racist" fanclub hypocrites who don't even observe the actual story. Ulfric isn't a racist ok, he merely holds harsh bitter feelings towards a "species" not a race who is attempting to conquer and enslave his people, let me ask you a question, how would u feel if one day your country was invaded by an army of vicious beings who sought to change your entire way of life and murder anyone who resisted? Would u not hold just a tiny little bit of discord for that species? Not to mention the traitors who would literally side with them! "imperials" Including the ones who weren't responsible? After all how do u know there not secretly working for them? In times like that it would be extremely hard to trust any of them, hopefully we can at least agree on that? And if so then that contradicts your claim.

Okay... well you don't have to be fl*ffing douch about it, God man seriously. Anyways, I am merely looking at what I know. The Empire is massive, it is absolutely impossible to be a 100% holy Empire. Maybe you're just an unbelievably blind Ulfric supporter. To answer your question, yes, I would hold a grudge towards the faction that decided to invade my country, but not the whole species/place that started it. Ulfric segregated the Dunmer, a race that was neutral throughout the Civil War and they were on the side of the Empire not the Thalmor.

Dude i'm not trying to sound like a douche, sorry if it came off that way, i just get tired of posting proof after proof on the subject here and still being denied, this whole topic has been done to death on these forums "there's even an entire flame thread which has over 600 replies on it based on the subject" that is insane! and tbh it gets old, hence why i don't even bother posting my 2 cents on the topic that often. The truth is its all how u choose to look at it, even the most evil of rulers can be visualized as "noble" in there actions if u try hard enough to believe it, but this whole "anyone who likes Ulfric is a racist" thing is for the birds man! People seem to forget that its just a game, i could tell you the "actual" reason people have labeled Ulfric a racist but if i did so i'd be trolled relentlessly on here by politically correct morons who hate to hear the truth. So i'll just say this, its "your" gaming experience so as long as you're having fun with it then believe whichever side is just that u choose.

I agree that raising evidence after evidence will only send us in an infinite loop of opinions and speculations. Bethesda didn't really give any of us enough information to accurately choose the best side. I believe the only reason they created the civil war was to read posts on forums.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

Okay... well you don't have to be fl*ffing douch about it, God man seriously. Anyways, I am merely looking at what I know. The Empire is massive, it is absolutely impossible to be a 100% holy Empire. Maybe you're just an unbelievably blind Ulfric supporter. To answer your question, yes, I would hold a grudge towards the faction that decided to invade my country, but not the whole species/place that started it. Ulfric segregated the Dunmer, a race that was neutral throughout the Civil War and they were on the side of the Empire not the Thalmor.

Dude i'm not trying to sound like a douche, sorry if it came off that way, i just get tired of posting proof after proof on the subject here and still being denied, this whole topic has been done to death on these forums "there's even an entire flame thread which has over 600 replies on it based on the subject" that is insane! and tbh it gets old, hence why i don't even bother posting my 2 cents on the topic that often. The truth is its all how u choose to look at it, even the most evil of rulers can be visualized as "noble" in there actions if u try hard enough to believe it, but this whole "anyone who likes Ulfric is a racist" thing is for the birds man! People seem to forget that its just a game, i could tell you the "actual" reason people have labeled Ulfric a racist but if i did so i'd be trolled relentlessly on here by politically correct morons who hate to hear the truth. So i'll just say this, its "your" gaming experience so as long as you're having fun with it then believe whichever side is just that u choose.

I agree that raising evidence after evidence will only send us in an infinite loop of opinions and speculations. Bethesda didn't really give any of us enough information to accurately choose the best side. I believe the only reason they created the civil war was to read posts on forums.

My main gripe with the civil war quests "aside from them being incredibly boring" is that u never get to defeat the thalmor, and that to me makes no sense.

 

[Majir-Dar]

Dude i'm not trying to sound like a douche, sorry if it came off that way, i just get tired of posting proof after proof on the subject here and still being denied, this whole topic has been done to death on these forums "there's even an entire flame thread which has over 600 replies on it based on the subject" that is insane! and tbh it gets old, hence why i don't even bother posting my 2 cents on the topic that often. The truth is its all how u choose to look at it, even the most evil of rulers can be visualized as "noble" in there actions if u try hard enough to believe it, but this whole "anyone who likes Ulfric is a racist" thing is for the birds man! People seem to forget that its just a game, i could tell you the "actual" reason people have labeled Ulfric a racist but if i did so i'd be trolled relentlessly on here by politically correct morons who hate to hear the truth. So i'll just say this, its "your" gaming experience so as long as you're having fun with it then believe whichever side is just that u choose.

I agree that raising evidence after evidence will only send us in an infinite loop of opinions and speculations. Bethesda didn't really give any of us enough information to accurately choose the best side. I believe the only reason they created the civil war was to read posts on forums.

My main gripe with the civil war quests "aside from them being incredibly boring" is that u never get to defeat the thalmor, and that to me makes no sense.

Especially when you consider the complications of creating a whole other game to defeat the Thalmor. You would be in the same timeline as the Dovahkiin and that just couldn't happen. I don't think the Dovahkiin would just sit out the 2nd Great War and if he was fighting than wouldn't your character meet up with him? Maybe your taking control of your original character, which still wouldn't be possible. No, the next game will take place after the 2nd Great War, far enough that people will forget about Skyrim's civil war. This would give Bethesda an excuse to not pick a side. Looks to me like our blades won't taste Thalmor blood but I could be wrong I suppose. It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[High King of Skyrim]

I disagree about Ulfric. I don't think he is corrupt and power hungry. He is racist though, but I suppose I would be too if elves invaded my country and did unspeakable things to the populace. He is a patriot that feels that the Empire he fought for has died. He loves his homeland and only wishes to see it ruled by Nords that do not bend a knee to the elves. I think Ulfric would make a great leader for the Nords, for Skyrim. I completely disagree with you that Ulfric doesn't want peace, he does, in Skyrim. He wants nothing more than for the Empire and the Aldmeri to leave Skyrim and her people alone. I do believe that Skyrim and Hammerfell could win a two front war with the Empire and the Aldmeri. Hammerfell alone fought the forces of Valenwood, Elsweyr and Summerset Isles to a standstill. I believe that the Redguards and the Nords are the most powerful warriors in all of Tamriel. Together and united they could do it. They would almost be destroyed in the process, but they could do it.

I'm not so sure. Hammerfell, after all is divided and has been for a long time. Certain factions within Hammerfell may decide to unite with Skyrim, although I'd be surprised as the provinces have historically fought wars over territories in northern Hammerfell. The war of Bend'r Mahk. Whilst the Empire was forced to abandon Hammerfell, they haven't abandoned Skyrim. Whilst, the civil war rages in Skyrim, the relationship between the Empire and the Nords is as strained perhaps, as it's ever been, I agree with you there. However, the Empire has encompassed Skyrim since one of their own sons, Talos, became the greatest emperor the Empire has ever had and Skyrim has flourished under Imperial rule, ever since. If Cyrodil is indeed the heart of the Empire, then Skyrim is undoubtably the strong-arm and an invaluable source of trade and soldiers. So much so that the Empire would be foolish to let it's grip over Skyrim wane. The rebellion is indeed a major concern for the Empire, and their complacency on certain issues regarding the Thalmor operations in Skyrim is no doubt weakening the bond between the two, day by day. Is this enough to fracture that bond altogether? Who's to know for sure but the political situation in Hammerfell, coupled with the ensuing civil war in Skyrim leaves far too many question marks over such an unlikely alliance in my view.

 

[HappyFaceClown]

I agree that raising evidence after evidence will only send us in an infinite loop of opinions and speculations. Bethesda didn't really give any of us enough information to accurately choose the best side. I believe the only reason they created the civil war was to read posts on forums.

My main gripe with the civil war quests "aside from them being incredibly boring" is that u never get to defeat the thalmor, and that to me makes no sense.

Especially when you consider the complications of creating a whole other game to defeat the Thalmor. You would be in the same timeline as the Dovahkiin and that just couldn't happen. I don't think the Dovahkiin would just sit out the 2nd Great War and if he was fighting than wouldn't your character meet up with him? Maybe your taking control of your original character, which still wouldn't be possible. No, the next game will take place after the 2nd Great War, far enough that people will forget about Skyrim's civil war. This would give Bethesda an excuse to not pick a side. Looks to me like our blades won't taste Thalmor blood but I could be wrong I suppose. It wouldn't be the first time.

You can't even get into the thalmor embassy "aside from the diplomatic immunity quest" even after u complete the civil war quest line! When in all actuality u could just climb the gate but still they should have at least given the option to attack them on your own if u choose.

 

[Remington721]

I have always felt torn between , these two factions . The Jarl of Windhelm has many legitimate claims and reasons to go to war as the other side has forbid his freedom to worship as he wants " Talos " . The Legion gave into the Thalmor ( Who I Truly hate ( Puffed up , self serving , Nazi type of A$$ / Holes , who want to rule over all others , who in thier eyes are inferior races . In truth the empire hates the Thalmor to , but was about to lose the whole empire to these bigot's , who make Ulfric look like a school boy when it comes to being evil . I have fought on both sides and still never feel good about the outcome reguardless of what side i pick.

 

[Thorn]

To my knowledge, at the time of the setting of the game, the only real members of the Empire are Cyrodiil, High Rock, and arguably Skyrim. Black Marsh has not been part of the Empire since the Oblivion Crisis, Morrowind was decimated by the Red Year as well as the invasion by Black Marsh, and Hammerfell has officially be removed. To me the "Empire" is gone. I could see Ulfric, who does have the Thu'um, leading Skyrim to victory over the Dominion. I do not think the Dominion is as strong as they pertain to be.

But just my opinion of course

 

[DrunkenMage]

The Empire didn't help Hammerfell because it would have violated the treaty. Hammerfell fought the Aldmeri to a standstill, granted the forces of the Aldmeri were weakened from the war with the Empire, but they fought so well that the Aldmeri had to withdraw from Hammerfell. It is in the Empire's best interest for Ulfric to become High King of Skyrim and withdraw from the Empire. The fact that they oppose this, is proof that the Empire has become corrupted or infiltrated by the Aldmeri. Think about it, if Skyrim became independent then whatever they do is not the responsibility of the Empire. Ulfric's best move would be to unite with Hammerfell and march into Summerset Isles and lay waste to the Aldmeri. They could do it without doubt. With a little planning the Empire could help Ulfric defeat the Aldmeri for good. The fact that they tried to kill Ulfric is proof that the Empire needs to be destroyed as well. I have no doubt that Skyrim united with Hammerfell could fight this two front war and win.

Ulfric is the Thalmor's asset and the Civil War is exactly what they want. I would hardly call the Empire infiltrated for maintaining their Empire. The Empire is unwilling to abandon over half the population that wish to remain a part of the Empire.

Hammerfell was devastated after the war, Skyrim will be devastated after the Civil War and require time to rebuild, since most of the resources that were important to it's people came from the Empire... They are going take much longer. Chances are Skyrim under the Stormcloaks will miss the next Great War. The Empire is preparing for war against the Aldmeri Dominion with nearly the entire Imperial Army already sitting on the Dominion's border.

"Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses. From the Imperial City, our war here is just a sideshow. An interlude before the main event against the Thalmor resumes." - General Tullius

The fact they tried to kill Ulfric just shows that laws in the Empire are the same as they were during Daggerfall. Unless you're saying the Empire during the time of the Septim Emperors should have been destroyed also. Ulfric was facing execution for High Treason.

Any act against (whether directly or indirectly, or any nonaction which results in circumstances, directly or indirectly, against) a allegiated sovereign or by a vassal to a liege, resulting (or what a reasonable person would assume would result) in physical, emotional, mental, or magical harm or injury in said sovereign or liege. The punishment for this crime will be death. - Legal Basics, Daggerfall


The White-Gold Concordat was for one purpose, to allow the Empire to regain it's strength to fight again. It isn't a lasting peace, both the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire are preparing for another round of warfare.