Why do the Thalmor want an Imperial victory?

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Minstrel

Queen of Evil
I have finally created a Hight Elf character on Skyrim. I made her a secret Thalmor who has joined the Imperial legion to help them win. The only problem is I don't know why the Thalmor want an Imperial victory. I have tried searching everywhere on the internet but I can only find sites that tell me 'yes the Thalmor do want an Imperial victory' but not why. I know it is something to do with helping weaken them for the Thalmor invasion, but I don't see how them wining the Civil war will help?

Can someone explain this to me?
 

Jersey Dagmar

Just in time for the fiyahworks show! BOOM!
Because the thalmor knows just how weak the empire is therefor they want them to win so they can defeat them again in the next war :) also the empire is the thalmor's puppet so that's why :)

Good lord, you know nothing do you? The Dominion doesn't care who wins. The longer the Civil war goes on for, the more it benefits the Dominion.
 

Vinz

Active Member
I don't think the Thalmor want an Imperial victory. The only form of hard evidence we get in this regard is a Thalmor dossier which clearly states that they are looking for a long drawn out civil war. From this evidence alone it is difficult to conclude which side they would prefer winning. Obviously they would want neither to win but if one was meant to win then which one would they prefer?

<Speculation> They should logically prefer an Imperial defeat. A further weakened Empire and an independent and possibly poorly governed Skyrim ruled by a man with questionable morals and capability. Sounds good enough for them. Heck I would have loved it if I were in the Dominion's think-tank. </Speculation>
 

Monopoly

Gypsy Panther
"What these Stormcloaks like to forget is that the Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim"


I kinda wish you could play as the Thalmor. That should have been the DLC instead of vampires.
I don't think they care, the civil war "weakens" (for lack of a better word) Skyrim, which would make it easier for the Thalmor to take over.
 

J03Z95

New Member
They would want the imperial legion more spread out rather than concentrated in one area ie Cyrodiil. The thalmor however want a long drawn out war between the stormcloaks and imperials, so to drain the Empire's resources.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
They would want the imperial legion more spread out rather than concentrated in one area ie Cyrodiil. The thalmor however want a long drawn out war between the stormcloaks and imperials, so to drain the Empire's resources.

Exactly. As I see it, the desired results from the Thalmor perspective are as follows:

Best: A long and protracted civil war, Imperial victory.
Good, but not quite as good: A long and protracted civil war, Stormcloak victory.
Very Bad: A quick Stormcloak victory.
Even Worse: A quick Imperial victory.

Ideally the Thalmor hope that things get so bad that the Empire is forced to divert a second legion from the border with the Dominion to deal with the Stormcloaks - an unruly rebellion that just won't die but also isn't making much headway. In this situation, even if Ulfric is killed and Windhelm captured, there will still be a significant insurgence that the Empire will have to quell, diverting resources from the southern front. If the Stormcloaks win but it takes a long time, there is also likely to be an insurgence, but Skyrim's own forces will be the ones dealing with that, not the Empire's.

If either side wins quickly and decisively, that's bad for the Thalmor. A decisive Imperial victory would mean any remaining Stormcloak insurgency would be less substantial and could likely be quelled by forces already in Skyrim. A decisive Stormcloak victory would mean not as much Imperial insurgency in Skyrim, and would make it less likely for the Empire to send reinforcements (since the Stormcloaks took care of the Legion they sent there already so handily, and they do still have the Dominion on their doorstep). On the other hand, it would still sever High Rock from Cyrodiil and weaken the Empire logistically.
 
They would want an Imperial victory because the Empire accepts the Thalmor, while the Stormcloaks would stick their heads on pikes if they kept Talos worship banned.
 

Raijin

A Mage that loves a Templar
Good lord, you know nothing do you? The Dominion doesn't care who wins. The longer the Civil war goes on for, the more it benefits the Dominion.

Don't worry Legion supporter. You know how right I am when it comes to the weakness of the empire. They're the ones that started this civil war. If they hadn't agreed with the ban of talos do you think for a moment that this civil war would even existed? Most likely not.

The Dominion wants the imperials to win because the empire is their puppet. All they gotta do is to use that war word and the empire gives them what they want.
 

Vinz

Active Member
Don't worry Legion supporter. You know how right I am when it comes to the weakness of the empire. They're the ones that started this civil war. If they hadn't agreed with the ban of talos do you think for a moment that this civil war would even existed? Most likely not.

The Dominion wants the imperials to win because the empire is their puppet. All they gotta do is to use that war word and the empire gives them what they want.

  • Empire is no one's puppet.
  • Ulfric started this war. Talos worship is an excuse. I'm sure you know that people who wanted to, were merrily worshiping Talos before the Stormcloaks came in and created all this bloody hue and cry. Ulfric is milking this issue to fix his own ends.
  • Empire had to sign the treaty because they thought it was the most logical thing to do at that time. Don't forget the Empire fought bravely but Dominion was a very strong opponent. This is war, stuff like this happens and obviously the treaties never favour the losing side. Look at our world's history for references.
 

Docta Corvina

Well-Known Member
I'm late to the party and much of what I say here has been said by others in the thread - please just bear with me.

To my mind, the Thalmor would not prefer an Imperial victory for one of the most basic reasons: their apparent strategy of 'divide and conquer'. As has been pointed out in other threads, the Dominion, weakened though it has been with time and war, has taken deliberate steps to sow the seeds of discord and discontent among the provinces and the Imperial seat. Call me cynical, but it seems clear to me that the situation with Hammerfell was indeed something of a calculated maneuver to drive a wedge between that province and the Empire. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Dominion executed a strategic withdrawal in that particular circumstance, after recognizing that what they sought had been achieved to their satisfaction. Do NOT get me wrong, I give the Redguards a great deal of credit for fighting so fiercely and bringing it all to a stalemate. I'll never begrudge them that. I just feel that if the pronounced chess-like mechanics were not involved, the stalemate would have gone on even longer or maybe have ended up quite differently. That's just my feeling, however.

In any case, the events in Skyrim are an echoing of the same tactics. A Skyrim torn apart by civil war naturally puts it in a much weaker position to directly oppose and battle the Dominion's forces. And the Thalmor/Dominion are well aware of this, as they allude to in their dossier. A quick, decisive victory on either side allows the civil bloodletting to be staunched at least for the present time - which of course is unfavorable to the Dominion. A long, drawn out conflict drains both blood and resources, and allows the Dominion to both reorganize and capitalize on the collective fatigue of their targets. A Stormcloak victory allows them an advantage of, well, vantage point. As well as time to bide. While the Empire would have to contend with a separated Skyrim, either letting it go or sending reinforcements to try to reverse the situation, the Dominion would have that time utterly at their disposal.

Hmm, tldr;

All in all, the Dominion needs time on their side. Because time yields the blood of those they seek to dominate, in Skyrim and throughout the Empire. As with Hammerfell, Skyrim is another point of focus for the deployment of deliberate strife and stress on its bonds with the Empire. It seems to me that as the Dominion has indeed been weakened overall, dividing and conquering by proxy - as it has been doing right along - is the greatest hope it has of dismantling the Empire and claiming the provinces. Of course much of this discussion is heavy with speculation. But it's one of the conclusions that drives me to play for the Empire. I despise the Thalmor as much as any Stormcloak and would love to see the Empire reinvigorated and able to finally put the Dominion types to rest. The Stormcloaks aren't the only ones who declare their intent to 'liberate' Skyrim. I believe Nords of the Legion like Hadvar and Rikke would strongly concur.

As Bulbaquil pointed out, even with an Imperial victory there is still evidence of a lingering rebellion, seen no less in the camps that continue to dot the countryside of Skyrim. During my post-war travels, I acknowledge both them and the resentment and even hatred in the voices of some Stormcloak sympathizers. It's something that will haunt the Empire no matter what happens. And that makes it all even more interesting to think about. Despite my own hypotheses, the twin ambiguity and complexity of the whole matter is clear to me. And rather striking.
 

Minstrel

Queen of Evil
Exactly. As I see it, the desired results from the Thalmor perspective are as follows:

Best: A long and protracted civil war, Imperial victory.
Good, but not quite as good: A long and protracted civil war, Stormcloak victory.
Very Bad: A quick Stormcloak victory.
Even Worse: A quick Imperial victory.

Ideally the Thalmor hope that things get so bad that the Empire is forced to divert a second legion from the border with the Dominion to deal with the Stormcloaks - an unruly rebellion that just won't die but also isn't making much headway. In this situation, even if Ulfric is killed and Windhelm captured, there will still be a significant insurgence that the Empire will have to quell, diverting resources from the southern front. If the Stormcloaks win but it takes a long time, there is also likely to be an insurgence, but Skyrim's own forces will be the ones dealing with that, not the Empire's.

If either side wins quickly and decisively, that's bad for the Thalmor. A decisive Imperial victory would mean any remaining Stormcloak insurgency would be less substantial and could likely be quelled by forces already in Skyrim. A decisive Stormcloak victory would mean not as much Imperial insurgency in Skyrim, and would make it less likely for the Empire to send reinforcements (since the Stormcloaks took care of the Legion they sent there already so handily, and they do still have the Dominion on their doorstep). On the other hand, it would still sever High Rock from Cyrodiil and weaken the Empire logistically.

What I am about to say is purely for RP purposes, but what do I do if my character has joined the Imperial legion? She is a Thalmor but due to a long complicated story no one knows this and she is using it to her advantage and hoping to weaken the empire. Because I have never completed the civil war story line I don't know if completing all of one of the sides quest means they win? If I completed all of the Imperials quests would they win the Civil war or do they just take a few more of the holds (meaning their resources are spread.)

If it does mean they win I don't know what to do because it would make it a quick imperial victory which is exactly what they don't want.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
What I am about to say is purely for RP purposes, but what do I do if my character has joined the Imperial legion? She is a Thalmor but due to a long complicated story no one knows this and she is using it to her advantage and hoping to weaken the empire. Because I have never completed the civil war story line I don't know if completing all of one of the sides quest means they win? If I completed all of the Imperials quests would they win the Civil war or do they just take a few more of the holds (meaning their resources are spread.)

If it does mean they win I don't know what to do because it would make it a quick imperial victory which is exactly what they don't want.

You could simply just say the whole thing is taking much longer than the in-game date actually declares.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
And does completing all of the Imperials quests mean they win the Civil war, or just push back the Stormcloaks?

It means the Stormcloaks are reduced to camps in Skyrim's wilderness. (As for which side you take, you aren't locked in until you deliver the Jagged Crown to Ulfric/Tullius - if you want to switch sides before then, just deliver it to the other one.)

Another alternative for your roleplay: The main advantage the Thalmor have with an Imperial-controlled Skyrim is the ability to operate openly in Skyrim. They can explore the land in safety, get a feel for vantage points, etc. all on the pretense of rooting out Talos worshippers. Maybe say that part of the reason they failed in Hammerfell was unfamiliarity of the land combined with hostile natives. As Dragonborn, your character has considerable freedom in ability to explore and wander around Skyrim and is in fact expected to.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
I have finally created a Hight Elf character on Skyrim. I made her a secret Thalmor who has joined the Imperial legion to help them win. The only problem is I don't know why the Thalmor want an Imperial victory. I have tried searching everywhere on the internet but I can only find sites that tell me 'yes the Thalmor do want an Imperial victory' but not why.
You're confused because wherever you might find that statement it's mere opinion unsubstantiated by fact. The Thalmor want the civil war to go on as long as possible. Who wins is irrelevant to them. The longer it goes on, the more resources it drains from both sides. Regardless of who wins, both the Empire and Skyrim will be weaker for it. It's a win/win situation for the Thalmor. If you're roleplaying a Thalmor undercover agent the most obvious thing for you to do is not to take a side so that the war can go on indefinitely.
 

Dagmar

Defender of the Bunnies of Skyrim
Another alternative for your roleplay: The main advantage the Thalmor have with an Imperial-controlled Skyrim is the ability to operate openly in Skyrim.
But they can and do do this with the civil war going on as well and get the added benefit of both sides continuing to drain their resources.
 

Start Dale

I got 99 problems but a Deadra ain't one.
As a true Nord i joined the legion and dealt swift suppression and defeat to the slightly facist Stormcloaks... A diverse Empire is a strong Empire!

Enjoy your White Gold Concordat Thalmor, it will not last :p

In other news i respect the level of role playing your giving to the game, i just used it to quit smoking and got hooked while on it. There is a fanfic section if your thinking of adapting your idea for story purposes.
I'm a bit miffed that at no point have i been allowed rock out with my Zombie out Draugr style. So that what i may try in the fanfic.
 

bulbaquil

...is not Sjadbek, he just runs him.
You're confused because wherever you might find that statement it's mere opinion unsubstantiated by fact. The Thalmor want the civil war to go on as long as possible. Who wins is irrelevant to them. The longer it goes on, the more resources it drains from both sides. Regardless of who wins, both the Empire and Skyrim will be weaker for it. It's a win/win situation for the Thalmor. If you're roleplaying a Thalmor undercover agent the most obvious thing for you to do is not to take a side so that the war can go on indefinitely.

Precisely. As I implied in my first post, the worst-case scenario for the Thalmor is a quick, decisive victory for either side. Also, it's worth pointing out that the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric also implies the possibility that they might have intervened in Ulfric's execution if Alduin had not:

Thalmor Dossier Ulfric Stormcloak said:
The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception [in being hands-off with respect to Ulfric] had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim.

If you've already taken a side in the civil war, from a roleplaying perspective it might be worth playing through Whiterun and then simply... leaving the war be. After you report to Ulfric/Tullius following the Battle of Whiterun, he tells you you'd be of more use to their forces with greater freedom (but to, at some point, report to the camp in Falkreath/the Pale, as Galmar/Rikke will have special tasks).
 

Necromis

Well-Known Member
Really, there is no set in stone answer as the game leaves their desires for who they want to win open. I think that is so the player can decide as the Thalmor if they choose.

In my opinion, the best win scenario for the Thalmor is a protracted war with the ultimate winner being the Imperials. First it will weaken the Impire and cost many lives and resources as they bring in more troops from outside the region. Take the example of your first conversation you overhear in Whiterun where the legion is requesting large quantities of weapons from the blacksmith shop. The cost of those weapons weakens them monetarily and the cost of lives weakens them in troop strength. So if they can keep it protracted the lessen the military capabilities of both the Impire and Skyrim's rebellion.

Next if the Impire ultimately winning the war they will be dealing with two issues that are in the Thalmor's favor. First the insurgents from those still loyal to a free Skyrim, and second by having to keep a large enough force in Skyrim to both defend it and supress these insurgents. This causes the Impire to have to defend more territory from the Thalmor if they were to invade, and also defend against the internal insurgents who would use this invasion as a means to attempt a second withdrawl from the Impire.

If the Stormcloaks win, even after a protracted war, the Impire will have a smaller territory to defend, and could possibly inlist the Stormcloaks as an ally against the Thalmor. We all know Ulfric would be itch to take some High Elf heads for his wall. Remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is proven with seasons unending when you negotiate the peace treaty because of the common enemy the dragons. So ultimately the winner best suited to benefit the Thalmor is the Impire, but only if you can not keep a stalemate going on for an indefinate period of time.
 
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