Imperials or Stormcloaks, what one?

[LegateFasendil]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Tyer032392 said: ↑​

Good lord, been off for a few months and this thread is still going.​

I know what you mean. Merely watching the thread 'progressing' now.

​

Raijin said: ↑​

Titus Mede II poor choice cost many people their lives. How can you say that it was a good choice? The ultimatum wand up being implemented anyways so what was the point of the Great war, and what good came out of it?​

But there never was a good choice to begin with.

​

Reject the ultimatum - war with the Dominion, loosing many soldiers (respectively, on both sides), but keeping alive, barely but still alive​

Accept the ultimatum - nobilities start to resist, causing civil war and in time probably followed by the assassination of the Emperor as well; resulting in plenty of little autonomous lands, easy pickings for the Dominion - also resulting in many lives lost, and of course many more casualties among the civilian population (on a sidenote, since a few landlords with their mini-forces could never even dream of resisting the armies of the entire Aldmeri Dominion, there would at least be far fewer number of deaths on the Dominion's side; it would basically be left unharmed)​

​

He could decide between influenza or a Black Death pandemic. None of them are pretty, but at least there's a chance for recovery if you choose the flu/the Concordat.​

Oh you must mean the Brown Gold Concordant- Cause I Wiped My Ass With It!!!

As a veteran myself, I still have an issue with this, for some reason. I just... don't care for it. A lot of people from various parts of Tamriel died trying to protect the Nord's freedoms. It's like... I don't like the attitude being conveyed here or something. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but as a vet myself, something about this makes me mad. What about all the people who died to protect Skyrim's freedoms?

Look, I can understand to an extent, Skyrim telling the Empire, "You guys flubbed the job up, so thank you... but no thank you... we're out of here..." like what Hammerfell did. The legit civilian gov in Hammerfell decided to leave the Empire and the Empire respected the decision. Still, a great many Redguards are still in the Legion even now. However, why wasn't Torygg even allowed the chance to declare independence? It's like Ulfric denied him the ability to choose because the question was never asked.

But Skyrim chose not to leave. This is something that should not be ignored. It's like the Jarls weren't ready to give up on the Empire yet, seeing how it's still Talos's Empire. Ulfric calls Torygg's father a true Nord. So if he is a true Nord in the eyes of Ulfric, and he did not give up on the Empire, what is really going on here? Do you see what I'm saying? Ulfric knows he was a true Nord... and not just that but a True High King of Skyrim... yet he goes against the man's wishes.

What's wrong with this picture?

At least the Empire tried to protect Skyrim... well, did a lot more than tried actually. I don't see where a war torn, economically sapped and xenophobic Skyrim under Ulfric is going to do any good? I mean I guess it could but such a country needs to be lead by the right person. Wars are expensive and the Dominion appears to be fabulously wealthy. You have to have allies to win wars.

And Ulfric is not good at making friends. But you know what, something about that last part. Wonder what Ulfric meant when he was talking about "we have allies" context seemed to me like he was saying, "The Stormcloaks have allies"... so if not Cyrodil or Morrowind or Highrock (they didn't bother to even respond to him) then who? Who are these allies... political factions perhaps? However most of them would probably support the Empire outside of his own party.

I don't pretend to understand what he meant, however I think it's worth looking into.

Also, while quite a bit of anger is directed at Titus Mede II for signing the WGC, the thing is... by the end of the war the Imperials were fighting for the opportunity to sign the WGC to save the Empire. Try and understand this if you will. It wasn't just TMII. Because the Empire surviving was the one thing the Thalmor didn't want MOST OF ALL. Nevermind screwing with people's rights. So by signing the WGC, which guaranteed the Empire's survival, the Empire actually dealt the Thalmor a serious blow. Until Ulfric helped them even the score.

So then... never mind the WGC. Ulfric's rebellion itself is literally... *plopsting* on every Imperial soldier who fought and died so the Empire could not be killed by the Thalmor. lol could you imagine? Everyone I know in America is so caught up in themselves and their rights that no one thinks about their country anymore. They think it's all about them.

I dunno though... is this the Nords fight? Just theirs? I doubt it. You can fight against the Empire if you will... however that's a hell of a way to repay the Empire for everything it's done for Skyrim over the years. I know one thing... you do the Empire wrong by this petty rebellion... and there's no way in hell anyone else in, around or directly associated with the Empire will ever help Skyrim again. After all, the Nords turned on the Empire who did EVERYTHING they could to help them, so why should anyone else put themselves between the Nords and their enemies? Don't expect Hammerfell to cover your ass either. Remember what that Necro Redguard said about the Stormcloaks... esp after Ulfric chose to conquer a peaceful kingdom rather than to help the Redguards in their struggle against the Thalor while the war was still going on. Although in a way, the Empire did help them.

Basically, Ulfric stood by and watched Hammerfell burn so he could further his ambitions to become High King of Skyrim. Which was his main reason for being at Markarth, even though he prob knew his father was dying, he didn't care. Had nothing whatsoever to do with Talos worship, Reachmen don't worship Talos. He needed a PR campaign and he needed to get people's attention... If he had the forces to take the Reach back from someone like the Forsworn, then he could have helped Hammerfell. But he didn't. Even after being released from prison Ulfric still didn't lift a finger to help the Redguards. So... how do you Stormcloaks figure you're going to get a treaty with Hammerfell? You're a charismatic cause and your leader has circumvented the normal operation of Skyrim's Gov and same leader, same people, could have done something to save lives, end the war sooner, yet you chose to invade a peaceful kingdom, a legitimate kingdom and take away their freedom for your ambition... So no matter what we have then... Ulfric's secret ambition(s), his pain, his vengeance will always take priority over what he claims to represent.

Such a person is very dangerous and unpredictable... and unreliable. No, in my final assessment I think I had it right all along. Replace Titus Mede II and have the council take over or the Dragonborn, let the Empire live on and get a second chance. For in Titus Mede II's death, the Empire is forever blameless for the WGC. That piece of legislation is, ultimately, his fault although most of the Empire wanted the war to end, I don't think they necessarily wanted to end like that... something MBB is right about.


- Still, killing the Empire is the wrong thing to do, you're just doing the Thalmor's dirty work for them and helping Thalmor accomplish their primary objective, not to mention throwing away everything that so many sacrificed for.

- Ulfric taking the throne is extremely dangerous and unsettling, simply because for no other reason ~ We don't know who he is. Not really. If he really cared anything at all about resisting the Thalmor he would have helped the Redguards, his neighbors. If he, the "Big Freedom Fighter" believed in peace and liberation from oppression, then he would not be an oppressor himself, which he is and if he isn't... like with the Redguards Ulfric won't stop oppression as long as it won't affect his party.

- The Empire is in a bad position, however the hidden truth is it's people is still willing to fight for it. They see what's really going on and if the Imperials will is strong enough, I have no doubt the Empire will make it. By getting rid of the Emperor and Ulfric, you can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

- While the pref'd outcome would be for both sides to come to terms, even if this was possible, Season Unending showed enough about each sides character for me to conclude this would never be a viable option. Tullius seemed like he might actually be willing to listen to a perm solution, Leg Rikke makes similar comments, but it's abun clear Ulfric would never accept it. Though possibly justified, Ulfric is driven by pain and emotion. Psy these traits result in someone who is not a thinking person, more likely to exaggerate things and get themselves too involved, like he did at Markarth.

- Tullius is taciturn and very serious but a thinking man nonetheless. He's the type of leader who would rather try and think his way out of a problem rather than just charge in to whatever fate. He's very keen and knows who he's dealing with and is no respect of person. Gen Tullius wouldn't win as many battles as Ulfric might because he wouldn't have to. And that's just what the Empire and Skyrim needs... until the Empire is ready to wage war again, Gen Tullius's way of doing things is best. Whereas Ulfric might win enough battles to win whatever war... he'll also make too many enemies in the process and won't have the Empire's resources to hold the line after the war is 'won'.

You see, in war, winning isn't everything because war never changes. Sometimes it's also hard to know when you've actually won. Just because you've beaten an enemy doesn't mean it's over. There are other fires which spring up that have to be dealt with. But... courage and sacrifice is not enough to win a war. There is a VERY important difference here between winning battles a winning a war. The Empire could win a war. Skyrim could win enough battles to be free and miserable because they'll be constant fighting, however Skyrim could NEVER win the war against the Dominion on it's own. The Thalmor can get to Ulfric, change his mind... among other things, they're done it before.

No. The Empire and the Empire alone will be the only thing that can stop the Thalmor, aside from perhaps the Akaviri. No one can win this kind of war alone... you must have allies... something the Empire is good at getting.

A Stormcloak Skyrim would be free to worship Talos... but I have to wonder... with the Stormcloaks so blindly following Ulfric and such... and eff finishing off Talos's Empire... would he even listen to their prayers? Or would he consider them even more the fool than Titus Mede II when he signed that damn treaty?


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

I realize he wants the Throne. Thats one of the reasons I'm fighting. But if hes on the throne he'll have to deliver on his promises otherwise he upsets his soldiers and another war. Like you said hes no idiot with Military tactics and Politics.

Ulfric also needs the Jarls to make him the High King, so he HAS to deliver his promises for that reason, not for fear of upsetting his followers.

Plus, he does not actually fight until Solitude at all. Reason?

Obviously if he dies he can't be High King however if you're questioning his capability the I'd say that he absolutely could. There is a mod called Civil War Overhaul (CWO) that uses the old scripts that were supposed to be in the game originally but were scrapped. For example, Ulfric was supposed to fight in the Battle of Whiterun and does with this mod. This is proven when he is given completely new lines of dialogue that weren't heard in the original game. He also fights at the battle of Markarth (which again was supposed to be in the original game) and once again is given lines of Dialogue which were cut from the original game. It's a great mod and I suggest you all give it a try to get a taste of how the Civil War was supposed to be.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I realize he wants the Throne. Thats one of the reasons I'm fighting. But if hes on the throne he'll have to deliver on his promises otherwise he upsets his soldiers and another war. Like you said hes no idiot with Military tactics and Politics.

Ulfric also needs the Jarls to make him the High King, so he HAS to deliver his promises for that reason, not for fear of upsetting his followers.

Plus, he does not actually fight until Solitude at all. Reason?

Obviously if he dies he can't be High King however if you're questioning his capability the I'd say that he absolutely could. There is a mod called Civil War Overhaul (CWO) that uses the old scripts that were supposed to be in the game originally but were scrapped. For example, Ulfric was supposed to fight in the Battle of Whiterun and does with this mod. This is proven when he is given completely new lines of dialogue that weren't heard in the original game. He also fights at the battle of Markarth (which again was supposed to be in the original game) and once again is given lines of Dialogue which were cut from the original game. It's a great mod and I suggest you all give it a try to get a taste of how the Civil War was supposed to be.

Cut dialogue and such are not actual content. I disregard that garbage.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Tyer032392 said: ↑​

Good lord, been off for a few months and this thread is still going.​

I know what you mean. Merely watching the thread 'progressing' now.

​

Raijin said: ↑​

Titus Mede II poor choice cost many people their lives. How can you say that it was a good choice? The ultimatum wand up being implemented anyways so what was the point of the Great war, and what good came out of it?​

But there never was a good choice to begin with.

​

Reject the ultimatum - war with the Dominion, loosing many soldiers (respectively, on both sides), but keeping alive, barely but still alive​

Accept the ultimatum - nobilities start to resist, causing civil war and in time probably followed by the assassination of the Emperor as well; resulting in plenty of little autonomous lands, easy pickings for the Dominion - also resulting in many lives lost, and of course many more casualties among the civilian population (on a sidenote, since a few landlords with their mini-forces could never even dream of resisting the armies of the entire Aldmeri Dominion, there would at least be far fewer number of deaths on the Dominion's side; it would basically be left unharmed)​

​

He could decide between influenza or a Black Death pandemic. None of them are pretty, but at least there's a chance for recovery if you choose the flu/the Concordat.​

Oh you must mean the Brown Gold Concordant- Cause I Wiped My Ass With It!!!

As a veteran myself, I still have an issue with this, for some reason. I just... don't care for it. A lot of people from various parts of Tamriel died trying to protect the Nord's freedoms. It's like... I don't like the attitude being conveyed here or something. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but as a vet myself, something about this makes me mad. What about all the people who died to protect Skyrim's freedoms?

Look, I can understand to an extent, Skyrim telling the Empire, "You guys flubbed the job up, so thank you... but no thank you... we're out of here..." like what Hammerfell did. The legit civilian gov in Hammerfell decided to leave the Empire and the Empire respected the decision. Still, a great many Redguards are still in the Legion even now. However, why wasn't Torygg even allowed the chance to declare independence? It's like Ulfric denied him the ability to choose because the question was never asked.

But Skyrim chose not to leave. This is something that should not be ignored. It's like the Jarls weren't ready to give up on the Empire yet, seeing how it's still Talos's Empire. Ulfric calls Torygg's father a true Nord. So if he is a true Nord in the eyes of Ulfric, and he did not give up on the Empire, what is really going on here? Do you see what I'm saying? Ulfric knows he was a true Nord... and not just that but a True High King of Skyrim... yet he goes against the man's wishes.

What's wrong with this picture?

At least the Empire tried to protect Skyrim... well, did a lot more than tried actually. I don't see where a war torn, economically sapped and xenophobic Skyrim under Ulfric is going to do any good? I mean I guess it could but such a country needs to be lead by the right person. Wars are expensive and the Dominion appears to be fabulously wealthy. You have to have allies to win wars.

And Ulfric is not good at making friends. But you know what, something about that last part. Wonder what Ulfric meant when he was talking about "we have allies" context seemed to me like he was saying, "The Stormcloaks have allies"... so if not Cyrodil or Morrowind or Highrock (they didn't bother to even respond to him) then who? Who are these allies... political factions perhaps? However most of them would probably support the Empire outside of his own party.

I don't pretend to understand what he meant, however I think it's worth looking into.

Also, while quite a bit of anger is directed at Titus Mede II for signing the WGC, the thing is... by the end of the war the Imperials were fighting for the opportunity to sign the WGC to save the Empire. Try and understand this if you will. It wasn't just TMII. Because the Empire surviving was the one thing the Thalmor didn't want MOST OF ALL. Nevermind screwing with people's rights. So by signing the WGC, which guaranteed the Empire's survival, the Empire actually dealt the Thalmor a serious blow. Until Ulfric helped them even the score.

So then... never mind the WGC. Ulfric's rebellion itself is literally... *pl***ting* on every Imperial soldier who fought and died so the Empire could not be killed by the Thalmor. lol could you imagine? Everyone I know in America is so caught up in themselves and their rights that no one thinks about their country anymore. They think it's all about them.

I dunno though... is this the Nords fight? Just theirs? I doubt it. You can fight against the Empire if you will... however that's a hell of a way to repay the Empire for everything it's done for Skyrim over the years. I know one thing... you do the Empire wrong by this petty rebellion... and there's no way in hell anyone else in, around or directly associated with the Empire will ever help Skyrim again. After all, the Nords turned on the Empire who did EVERYTHING they could to help them, so why should anyone else put themselves between the Nords and their enemies? Don't expect Hammerfell to cover your ass either. Remember what that Necro Redguard said about the Stormcloaks... esp after Ulfric chose to conquer a peaceful kingdom rather than to help the Redguards in their struggle against the Thalor while the war was still going on. Although in a way, the Empire did help them.

Basically, Ulfric stood by and watched Hammerfell burn so he could further his ambitions to become High King of Skyrim. Which was his main reason for being at Markarth, even though he prob knew his father was dying, he didn't care. Had nothing whatsoever to do with Talos worship, Reachmen don't worship Talos. He needed a PR campaign and he needed to get people's attention... If he had the forces to take the Reach back from someone like the Forsworn, then he could have helped Hammerfell. But he didn't. Even after being released from prison Ulfric still didn't lift a finger to help the Redguards. So... how do you Stormcloaks figure you're going to get a treaty with Hammerfell? You're a charismatic cause and your leader has circumvented the normal operation of Skyrim's Gov and same leader, same people, could have done something to save lives, end the war sooner, yet you chose to invade a peaceful kingdom, a legitimate kingdom and take away their freedom for your ambition... So no matter what we have then... Ulfric's secret ambition(s), his pain, his vengeance will always take priority over what he claims to represent.

Such a person is very dangerous and unpredictable... and unreliable. No, in my final assessment I think I had it right all along. Replace Titus Mede II and have the council take over or the Dragonborn, let the Empire live on and get a second chance. For in Titus Mede II's death, the Empire is forever blameless for the WGC. That piece of legislation is, ultimately, his fault although most of the Empire wanted the war to end, I don't think they necessarily wanted to end like that... something MBB is right about.


- Still, killing the Empire is the wrong thing to do, you're just doing the Thalmor's dirty work for them and helping Thalmor accomplish their primary objective, not to mention throwing away everything that so many sacrificed for.

- Ulfric taking the throne is extremely dangerous and unsettling, simply because for no other reason ~ We don't know who he is. Not really. If he really cared anything at all about resisting the Thalmor he would have helped the Redguards, his neighbors. If he, the "Big Freedom Fighter" believed in peace and liberation from oppression, then he would not be an oppressor himself, which he is and if he isn't... like with the Redguards Ulfric won't stop oppression as long as it won't affect his party.

- The Empire is in a bad position, however the hidden truth is it's people is still willing to fight for it. They see what's really going on and if the Imperials will is strong enough, I have no doubt the Empire will make it. By getting rid of the Emperor and Ulfric, you can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

- While the pref'd outcome would be for both sides to come to terms, even if this was possible, Season Unending showed enough about each sides character for me to conclude this would never be a viable option. Tullius seemed like he might actually be willing to listen to a perm solution, Leg Rikke makes similar comments, but it's abun clear Ulfric would never accept it. Though possibly justified, Ulfric is driven by pain and emotion. Psy these traits result in someone who is not a thinking person, more likely to exaggerate things and get themselves too involved, like he did at Markarth.

- Tullius is taciturn and very serious but a thinking man nonetheless. He's the type of leader who would rather try and think his way out of a problem rather than just charge in to whatever fate. He's very keen and knows who he's dealing with and is no respect of person. Gen Tullius wouldn't win as many battles as Ulfric might because he wouldn't have to. And that's just what the Empire and Skyrim needs... until the Empire is ready to wage war again, Gen Tullius's way of doing things is best. Whereas Ulfric might win enough battles to win whatever war... he'll also make too many enemies in the process and won't have the Empire's resources to hold the line after the war is 'won'.

You see, in war, winning isn't everything because war never changes. Sometimes it's also hard to know when you've actually won. Just because you've beaten an enemy doesn't mean it's over. There are other fires which spring up that have to be dealt with. But... courage and sacrifice is not enough to win a war. There is a VERY important difference here between winning battles a winning a war. The Empire could win a war. Skyrim could win enough battles to be free and miserable because they'll be constant fighting, however Skyrim could NEVER win the war against the Dominion on it's own. The Thalmor can get to Ulfric, change his mind... among other things, they're done it before.

No. The Empire and the Empire alone will be the only thing that can stop the Thalmor, aside from perhaps the Akaviri. No one can win this kind of war alone... you must have allies... something the Empire is good at getting.

A Stormcloak Skyrim would be free to worship Talos... but I have to wonder... with the Stormcloaks so blindly following Ulfric and such... and eff finishing off Talos's Empire... would he even listen to their prayers? Or would he consider them even more the fool than Titus Mede II when he signed that damn treaty?


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Well that's certainly... a lot of words. Let me put this into perspective. Obviously half of the Jarls of Skyrim were not happy about The Empire even Brinna Merillis an Imperial Jarl has her problems with the Empire. A lot of them don't trust Ulfric and believe he only want's the throne, but, still they support his cause. Why? Because they think he'll be a better High King then Dead King Torygg who always yammered on about The Empire this and The Empire that. He was loved and hated, split halfway. Skyrim needs a High King that will lead her not be a puppet king to the Empire like Torygg. Ulfric is a free thinker, Torygg is a servant.

Those Nords and Redguards did NOT fight for a treaty that would only hinder their country. They fought to preserve the Empire and when TMII signed that treaty he damned them all to holy fire and turmoil. If you think they fought for a treaty, than they shouldn't have fought at all. This is because the Brown Gold Concordant was almost IDENTICAL to the ultimatum presented by The Dominion at the start of the war.

Last time I checked your Empire did NOTHING while those Nords were cut down in The Reach by the Reachmen and they did nothing.

Ulfric had just come back from the War while the Redguards were fighting. He had basically NO power and even when he did he didn't have a solid reason to hate The Empire. He had main pushing points that drove him to War
1) He was arrested by The Empire after retaking The Reach for them.
2) Because thousands of Nords fought and died to preserve an Empire that wouldn't do the same for Skyrim.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I've heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."-Ulfric Stormcloak 4E 201
hes quite obviously sincere I mean you can't fake that passion, that pure conviction its poetry, just pure, poetry. And you better bet your ass that's gonna be on a loading screen next game.

I personally will not wait 25 years for the Empire to regain its strength. I (and many other Stormcloaks) are too proud for that.

Hammerfell is there ally they both share an equal hate for the Empire and the Dominion. Those Redguards in The Imperial army or born in Cyrodiil or in Skyrim. This is clear because The Redguards of Hammerfell despise and I mean HATE the Empire after the Great War. Not to mention how alike the Nords and Redguards are. They both despise magic. They both hold honor and valor very high and are both extremely great warriors.

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Your Empire is dead

All Hail to Ulfric and to the True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Rimfaxe96 said: ↑

Tyer032392 said: ↑​

Good lord, been off for a few months and this thread is still going.​

I know what you mean. Merely watching the thread 'progressing' now.

​

Raijin said: ↑​

Titus Mede II poor choice cost many people their lives. How can you say that it was a good choice? The ultimatum wand up being implemented anyways so what was the point of the Great war, and what good came out of it?​

But there never was a good choice to begin with.

​

Reject the ultimatum - war with the Dominion, loosing many soldiers (respectively, on both sides), but keeping alive, barely but still alive​

Accept the ultimatum - nobilities start to resist, causing civil war and in time probably followed by the assassination of the Emperor as well; resulting in plenty of little autonomous lands, easy pickings for the Dominion - also resulting in many lives lost, and of course many more casualties among the civilian population (on a sidenote, since a few landlords with their mini-forces could never even dream of resisting the armies of the entire Aldmeri Dominion, there would at least be far fewer number of deaths on the Dominion's side; it would basically be left unharmed)​

​

He could decide between influenza or a Black Death pandemic. None of them are pretty, but at least there's a chance for recovery if you choose the flu/the Concordat.​

Oh you must mean the Brown Gold Concordant- Cause I Wiped My Ass With It!!!

As a veteran myself, I still have an issue with this, for some reason. I just... don't care for it. A lot of people from various parts of Tamriel died trying to protect the Nord's freedoms. It's like... I don't like the attitude being conveyed here or something. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but as a vet myself, something about this makes me mad. What about all the people who died to protect Skyrim's freedoms?

Look, I can understand to an extent, Skyrim telling the Empire, "You guys flubbed the job up, so thank you... but no thank you... we're out of here..." like what Hammerfell did. The legit civilian gov in Hammerfell decided to leave the Empire and the Empire respected the decision. Still, a great many Redguards are still in the Legion even now. However, why wasn't Torygg even allowed the chance to declare independence? It's like Ulfric denied him the ability to choose because the question was never asked.

But Skyrim chose not to leave. This is something that should not be ignored. It's like the Jarls weren't ready to give up on the Empire yet, seeing how it's still Talos's Empire. Ulfric calls Torygg's father a true Nord. So if he is a true Nord in the eyes of Ulfric, and he did not give up on the Empire, what is really going on here? Do you see what I'm saying? Ulfric knows he was a true Nord... and not just that but a True High King of Skyrim... yet he goes against the man's wishes.

What's wrong with this picture?

At least the Empire tried to protect Skyrim... well, did a lot more than tried actually. I don't see where a war torn, economically sapped and xenophobic Skyrim under Ulfric is going to do any good? I mean I guess it could but such a country needs to be lead by the right person. Wars are expensive and the Dominion appears to be fabulously wealthy. You have to have allies to win wars.

And Ulfric is not good at making friends. But you know what, something about that last part. Wonder what Ulfric meant when he was talking about "we have allies" context seemed to me like he was saying, "The Stormcloaks have allies"... so if not Cyrodil or Morrowind or Highrock (they didn't bother to even respond to him) then who? Who are these allies... political factions perhaps? However most of them would probably support the Empire outside of his own party.

I don't pretend to understand what he meant, however I think it's worth looking into.

Also, while quite a bit of anger is directed at Titus Mede II for signing the WGC, the thing is... by the end of the war the Imperials were fighting for the opportunity to sign the WGC to save the Empire. Try and understand this if you will. It wasn't just TMII. Because the Empire surviving was the one thing the Thalmor didn't want MOST OF ALL. Nevermind screwing with people's rights. So by signing the WGC, which guaranteed the Empire's survival, the Empire actually dealt the Thalmor a serious blow. Until Ulfric helped them even the score.

So then... never mind the WGC. Ulfric's rebellion itself is literally... *pl***ting* on every Imperial soldier who fought and died so the Empire could not be killed by the Thalmor. lol could you imagine? Everyone I know in America is so caught up in themselves and their rights that no one thinks about their country anymore. They think it's all about them.

I dunno though... is this the Nords fight? Just theirs? I doubt it. You can fight against the Empire if you will... however that's a hell of a way to repay the Empire for everything it's done for Skyrim over the years. I know one thing... you do the Empire wrong by this petty rebellion... and there's no way in hell anyone else in, around or directly associated with the Empire will ever help Skyrim again. After all, the Nords turned on the Empire who did EVERYTHING they could to help them, so why should anyone else put themselves between the Nords and their enemies? Don't expect Hammerfell to cover your ass either. Remember what that Necro Redguard said about the Stormcloaks... esp after Ulfric chose to conquer a peaceful kingdom rather than to help the Redguards in their struggle against the Thalor while the war was still going on. Although in a way, the Empire did help them.

Basically, Ulfric stood by and watched Hammerfell burn so he could further his ambitions to become High King of Skyrim. Which was his main reason for being at Markarth, even though he prob knew his father was dying, he didn't care. Had nothing whatsoever to do with Talos worship, Reachmen don't worship Talos. He needed a PR campaign and he needed to get people's attention... If he had the forces to take the Reach back from someone like the Forsworn, then he could have helped Hammerfell. But he didn't. Even after being released from prison Ulfric still didn't lift a finger to help the Redguards. So... how do you Stormcloaks figure you're going to get a treaty with Hammerfell? You're a charismatic cause and your leader has circumvented the normal operation of Skyrim's Gov and same leader, same people, could have done something to save lives, end the war sooner, yet you chose to invade a peaceful kingdom, a legitimate kingdom and take away their freedom for your ambition... So no matter what we have then... Ulfric's secret ambition(s), his pain, his vengeance will always take priority over what he claims to represent.

Such a person is very dangerous and unpredictable... and unreliable. No, in my final assessment I think I had it right all along. Replace Titus Mede II and have the council take over or the Dragonborn, let the Empire live on and get a second chance. For in Titus Mede II's death, the Empire is forever blameless for the WGC. That piece of legislation is, ultimately, his fault although most of the Empire wanted the war to end, I don't think they necessarily wanted to end like that... something MBB is right about.


- Still, killing the Empire is the wrong thing to do, you're just doing the Thalmor's dirty work for them and helping Thalmor accomplish their primary objective, not to mention throwing away everything that so many sacrificed for.

- Ulfric taking the throne is extremely dangerous and unsettling, simply because for no other reason ~ We don't know who he is. Not really. If he really cared anything at all about resisting the Thalmor he would have helped the Redguards, his neighbors. If he, the "Big Freedom Fighter" believed in peace and liberation from oppression, then he would not be an oppressor himself, which he is and if he isn't... like with the Redguards Ulfric won't stop oppression as long as it won't affect his party.

- The Empire is in a bad position, however the hidden truth is it's people is still willing to fight for it. They see what's really going on and if the Imperials will is strong enough, I have no doubt the Empire will make it. By getting rid of the Emperor and Ulfric, you can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

- While the pref'd outcome would be for both sides to come to terms, even if this was possible, Season Unending showed enough about each sides character for me to conclude this would never be a viable option. Tullius seemed like he might actually be willing to listen to a perm solution, Leg Rikke makes similar comments, but it's abun clear Ulfric would never accept it. Though possibly justified, Ulfric is driven by pain and emotion. Psy these traits result in someone who is not a thinking person, more likely to exaggerate things and get themselves too involved, like he did at Markarth.

- Tullius is taciturn and very serious but a thinking man nonetheless. He's the type of leader who would rather try and think his way out of a problem rather than just charge in to whatever fate. He's very keen and knows who he's dealing with and is no respect of person. Gen Tullius wouldn't win as many battles as Ulfric might because he wouldn't have to. And that's just what the Empire and Skyrim needs... until the Empire is ready to wage war again, Gen Tullius's way of doing things is best. Whereas Ulfric might win enough battles to win whatever war... he'll also make too many enemies in the process and won't have the Empire's resources to hold the line after the war is 'won'.

You see, in war, winning isn't everything because war never changes. Sometimes it's also hard to know when you've actually won. Just because you've beaten an enemy doesn't mean it's over. There are other fires which spring up that have to be dealt with. But... courage and sacrifice is not enough to win a war. There is a VERY important difference here between winning battles a winning a war. The Empire could win a war. Skyrim could win enough battles to be free and miserable because they'll be constant fighting, however Skyrim could NEVER win the war against the Dominion on it's own. The Thalmor can get to Ulfric, change his mind... among other things, they're done it before.

No. The Empire and the Empire alone will be the only thing that can stop the Thalmor, aside from perhaps the Akaviri. No one can win this kind of war alone... you must have allies... something the Empire is good at getting.

A Stormcloak Skyrim would be free to worship Talos... but I have to wonder... with the Stormcloaks so blindly following Ulfric and such... and eff finishing off Talos's Empire... would he even listen to their prayers? Or would he consider them even more the fool than Titus Mede II when he signed that damn treaty?


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Well that's certainly... a lot of words. Let me put this into perspective. Obviously half of the Jarls of Skyrim were not happy about The Empire even Brinna Merillis an Imperial Jarl has her problems with the Empire. A lot of them don't trust Ulfric and believe he only want's the throne, but, still they support his cause. Why? Because they think he'll be a better High King then Dead King Torygg who always yammered on about The Empire this and The Empire that. He was loved and hated, split halfway. Skyrim needs a High King that will lead her not be a puppet king to the Empire like Torygg. Ulfric is a free thinker, Torygg is a servant.

Those Nords and Redguards did NOT fight for a treaty that would only hinder their country. They fought to preserve the Empire and when TMII signed that treaty he damned them all to holy fire and turmoil. If you think they fought for a treaty, than they shouldn't have fought at all. This is because the Brown Gold Concordant was almost IDENTICAL to the ultimatum presented by The Dominion at the start of the war.

Last time I checked your Empire did NOTHING while those Nords were cut down in The Reach by the Reachmen and they did nothing.

Ulfric had just come back from the War while the Redguards were fighting. He had basically NO power and even when he did he didn't have a solid reason to hate The Empire. He had main pushing points that drove him to War
1) He was arrested by The Empire after retaking The Reach for them.
2) Because thousands of Nords fought and died to preserve an Empire that wouldn't do the same for Skyrim.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I've heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."-Ulfric Stormcloak 4E 201
hes quite obviously sincere I mean you can't fake that passion, that pure conviction its poetry, just pure, poetry. And you better bet your ass that's gonna be on a loading screen next game.

I personally will not wait 25 years for the Empire to regain its strength. I (and many other Stormcloaks) are too proud for that.

Hammerfell is there ally they both share an equal hate for the Empire and the Dominion. Those Redguards in The Imperial army or born in Cyrodiil or in Skyrim. This is clear because The Redguards of Hammerfell despise and I mean HATE the Empire after the Great War. Not to mention how alike the Nords and Redguards are. They both despise magic. They both hold honor and valor very high and are both extremely great warriors.

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Your Empire is dead

All Hail to Ulfric and to the True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim.

Pretty much everyone just wanted the war to be over. The main army was gone and the Thalmor had no real power to do anything in Skyrim without Ulfric and his merry band of morons bringing it up. Why? Because Ulfric wanted attention, likely.

 

[DrunkenMage]

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Sovngarde doesn't work like that.

"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - Ysgramor, A Dream of Sovngarde

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Ulfric also needs the Jarls to make him the High King, so he HAS to deliver his promises for that reason, not for fear of upsetting his followers.

Plus, he does not actually fight until Solitude at all. Reason?

Obviously if he dies he can't be High King however if you're questioning his capability the I'd say that he absolutely could. There is a mod called Civil War Overhaul (CWO) that uses the old scripts that were supposed to be in the game originally but were scrapped. For example, Ulfric was supposed to fight in the Battle of Whiterun and does with this mod. This is proven when he is given completely new lines of dialogue that weren't heard in the original game. He also fights at the battle of Markarth (which again was supposed to be in the original game) and once again is given lines of Dialogue which were cut from the original game. It's a great mod and I suggest you all give it a try to get a taste of how the Civil War was supposed to be.

Cut dialogue and such are not actual content. I disregard that garbage.

They also cut the Battle of Markarth in which he fought in and said this to his soldiers "This is it men! It's time to make this city ours. The walls of Markarth may be high, but their age will have created weakness or secret entrances. find them! They'll have barricades set, destroy them quickly. Keep pressing forward. All that remains then is the exterior gate. Find a way through to open it and the city will be ours! Ready now! Everyone, with me! For the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim!" he will then rush with his men and take Markarth. Galmar will storm the keep and fight the Jarl, Ondolemar, The Jarl's Housecarl and a few random Imperials. The Silver Blood Jarl will then enter and say some plops to Jarl Igmund. Galmar will shut them up and Igmund will surrendur. Then Galmar will halt Ondolemar.
Galmar: Halt Elf! You're not going anywhere!
Ondolemar: I presume you're talking to me.
Galmar: On your Knees Elf!
Ondolemar:.....
Galmar: I said, On your Knees!
Ondolemar: Have your petty victory. Soon you will all be slaves.
*Galmar then procedes to cut off his head*
Galmar: Someone take that filth out of here!
Is that enough for you to spark your interests? Well that was ALL supposed to be in the original game but it got scrapped due to bugs and because Bethesda already had a set launch date.
Heres a link to the battle of Markarth: Skip to about 1:30

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Sovngarde doesn't work like that.

"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - Ysgramor, A Dream of Sovngarde

However Ysgramor didn't die in battle. He died in his sleep. But for his great deeds he was rewarded Sovngarde.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

As a veteran myself, I still have an issue with this, for some reason. I just... don't care for it. A lot of people from various parts of Tamriel died trying to protect the Nord's freedoms. It's like... I don't like the attitude being conveyed here or something. Perhaps I shouldn't care, but as a vet myself, something about this makes me mad. What about all the people who died to protect Skyrim's freedoms?

Look, I can understand to an extent, Skyrim telling the Empire, "You guys flubbed the job up, so thank you... but no thank you... we're out of here..." like what Hammerfell did. The legit civilian gov in Hammerfell decided to leave the Empire and the Empire respected the decision. Still, a great many Redguards are still in the Legion even now. However, why wasn't Torygg even allowed the chance to declare independence? It's like Ulfric denied him the ability to choose because the question was never asked.

But Skyrim chose not to leave. This is something that should not be ignored. It's like the Jarls weren't ready to give up on the Empire yet, seeing how it's still Talos's Empire. Ulfric calls Torygg's father a true Nord. So if he is a true Nord in the eyes of Ulfric, and he did not give up on the Empire, what is really going on here? Do you see what I'm saying? Ulfric knows he was a true Nord... and not just that but a True High King of Skyrim... yet he goes against the man's wishes.

What's wrong with this picture?

At least the Empire tried to protect Skyrim... well, did a lot more than tried actually. I don't see where a war torn, economically sapped and xenophobic Skyrim under Ulfric is going to do any good? I mean I guess it could but such a country needs to be lead by the right person. Wars are expensive and the Dominion appears to be fabulously wealthy. You have to have allies to win wars.

And Ulfric is not good at making friends. But you know what, something about that last part. Wonder what Ulfric meant when he was talking about "we have allies" context seemed to me like he was saying, "The Stormcloaks have allies"... so if not Cyrodil or Morrowind or Highrock (they didn't bother to even respond to him) then who? Who are these allies... political factions perhaps? However most of them would probably support the Empire outside of his own party.

I don't pretend to understand what he meant, however I think it's worth looking into.

Also, while quite a bit of anger is directed at Titus Mede II for signing the WGC, the thing is... by the end of the war the Imperials were fighting for the opportunity to sign the WGC to save the Empire. Try and understand this if you will. It wasn't just TMII. Because the Empire surviving was the one thing the Thalmor didn't want MOST OF ALL. Nevermind screwing with people's rights. So by signing the WGC, which guaranteed the Empire's survival, the Empire actually dealt the Thalmor a serious blow. Until Ulfric helped them even the score.

So then... never mind the WGC. Ulfric's rebellion itself is literally... *pl***ting* on every Imperial soldier who fought and died so the Empire could not be killed by the Thalmor. lol could you imagine? Everyone I know in America is so caught up in themselves and their rights that no one thinks about their country anymore. They think it's all about them.

I dunno though... is this the Nords fight? Just theirs? I doubt it. You can fight against the Empire if you will... however that's a hell of a way to repay the Empire for everything it's done for Skyrim over the years. I know one thing... you do the Empire wrong by this petty rebellion... and there's no way in hell anyone else in, around or directly associated with the Empire will ever help Skyrim again. After all, the Nords turned on the Empire who did EVERYTHING they could to help them, so why should anyone else put themselves between the Nords and their enemies? Don't expect Hammerfell to cover your ass either. Remember what that Necro Redguard said about the Stormcloaks... esp after Ulfric chose to conquer a peaceful kingdom rather than to help the Redguards in their struggle against the Thalor while the war was still going on. Although in a way, the Empire did help them.

Basically, Ulfric stood by and watched Hammerfell burn so he could further his ambitions to become High King of Skyrim. Which was his main reason for being at Markarth, even though he prob knew his father was dying, he didn't care. Had nothing whatsoever to do with Talos worship, Reachmen don't worship Talos. He needed a PR campaign and he needed to get people's attention... If he had the forces to take the Reach back from someone like the Forsworn, then he could have helped Hammerfell. But he didn't. Even after being released from prison Ulfric still didn't lift a finger to help the Redguards. So... how do you Stormcloaks figure you're going to get a treaty with Hammerfell? You're a charismatic cause and your leader has circumvented the normal operation of Skyrim's Gov and same leader, same people, could have done something to save lives, end the war sooner, yet you chose to invade a peaceful kingdom, a legitimate kingdom and take away their freedom for your ambition... So no matter what we have then... Ulfric's secret ambition(s), his pain, his vengeance will always take priority over what he claims to represent.

Such a person is very dangerous and unpredictable... and unreliable. No, in my final assessment I think I had it right all along. Replace Titus Mede II and have the council take over or the Dragonborn, let the Empire live on and get a second chance. For in Titus Mede II's death, the Empire is forever blameless for the WGC. That piece of legislation is, ultimately, his fault although most of the Empire wanted the war to end, I don't think they necessarily wanted to end like that... something MBB is right about.


- Still, killing the Empire is the wrong thing to do, you're just doing the Thalmor's dirty work for them and helping Thalmor accomplish their primary objective, not to mention throwing away everything that so many sacrificed for.

- Ulfric taking the throne is extremely dangerous and unsettling, simply because for no other reason ~ We don't know who he is. Not really. If he really cared anything at all about resisting the Thalmor he would have helped the Redguards, his neighbors. If he, the "Big Freedom Fighter" believed in peace and liberation from oppression, then he would not be an oppressor himself, which he is and if he isn't... like with the Redguards Ulfric won't stop oppression as long as it won't affect his party.

- The Empire is in a bad position, however the hidden truth is it's people is still willing to fight for it. They see what's really going on and if the Imperials will is strong enough, I have no doubt the Empire will make it. By getting rid of the Emperor and Ulfric, you can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.

- While the pref'd outcome would be for both sides to come to terms, even if this was possible, Season Unending showed enough about each sides character for me to conclude this would never be a viable option. Tullius seemed like he might actually be willing to listen to a perm solution, Leg Rikke makes similar comments, but it's abun clear Ulfric would never accept it. Though possibly justified, Ulfric is driven by pain and emotion. Psy these traits result in someone who is not a thinking person, more likely to exaggerate things and get themselves too involved, like he did at Markarth.

- Tullius is taciturn and very serious but a thinking man nonetheless. He's the type of leader who would rather try and think his way out of a problem rather than just charge in to whatever fate. He's very keen and knows who he's dealing with and is no respect of person. Gen Tullius wouldn't win as many battles as Ulfric might because he wouldn't have to. And that's just what the Empire and Skyrim needs... until the Empire is ready to wage war again, Gen Tullius's way of doing things is best. Whereas Ulfric might win enough battles to win whatever war... he'll also make too many enemies in the process and won't have the Empire's resources to hold the line after the war is 'won'.

You see, in war, winning isn't everything because war never changes. Sometimes it's also hard to know when you've actually won. Just because you've beaten an enemy doesn't mean it's over. There are other fires which spring up that have to be dealt with. But... courage and sacrifice is not enough to win a war. There is a VERY important difference here between winning battles a winning a war. The Empire could win a war. Skyrim could win enough battles to be free and miserable because they'll be constant fighting, however Skyrim could NEVER win the war against the Dominion on it's own. The Thalmor can get to Ulfric, change his mind... among other things, they're done it before.

No. The Empire and the Empire alone will be the only thing that can stop the Thalmor, aside from perhaps the Akaviri. No one can win this kind of war alone... you must have allies... something the Empire is good at getting.

A Stormcloak Skyrim would be free to worship Talos... but I have to wonder... with the Stormcloaks so blindly following Ulfric and such... and eff finishing off Talos's Empire... would he even listen to their prayers? Or would he consider them even more the fool than Titus Mede II when he signed that damn treaty?


LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE

Well that's certainly... a lot of words. Let me put this into perspective. Obviously half of the Jarls of Skyrim were not happy about The Empire even Brinna Merillis an Imperial Jarl has her problems with the Empire. A lot of them don't trust Ulfric and believe he only want's the throne, but, still they support his cause. Why? Because they think he'll be a better High King then Dead King Torygg who always yammered on about The Empire this and The Empire that. He was loved and hated, split halfway. Skyrim needs a High King that will lead her not be a puppet king to the Empire like Torygg. Ulfric is a free thinker, Torygg is a servant.

Those Nords and Redguards did NOT fight for a treaty that would only hinder their country. They fought to preserve the Empire and when TMII signed that treaty he damned them all to holy fire and turmoil. If you think they fought for a treaty, than they shouldn't have fought at all. This is because the Brown Gold Concordant was almost IDENTICAL to the ultimatum presented by The Dominion at the start of the war.

Last time I checked your Empire did NOTHING while those Nords were cut down in The Reach by the Reachmen and they did nothing.

Ulfric had just come back from the War while the Redguards were fighting. He had basically NO power and even when he did he didn't have a solid reason to hate The Empire. He had main pushing points that drove him to War
1) He was arrested by The Empire after retaking The Reach for them.
2) Because thousands of Nords fought and died to preserve an Empire that wouldn't do the same for Skyrim.
"I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I've heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."-Ulfric Stormcloak 4E 201
hes quite obviously sincere I mean you can't fake that passion, that pure conviction its poetry, just pure, poetry. And you better bet your ass that's gonna be on a loading screen next game.

I personally will not wait 25 years for the Empire to regain its strength. I (and many other Stormcloaks) are too proud for that.

Hammerfell is there ally they both share an equal hate for the Empire and the Dominion. Those Redguards in The Imperial army or born in Cyrodiil or in Skyrim. This is clear because The Redguards of Hammerfell despise and I mean HATE the Empire after the Great War. Not to mention how alike the Nords and Redguards are. They both despise magic. They both hold honor and valor very high and are both extremely great warriors.

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Your Empire is dead

All Hail to Ulfric and to the True Sons and Daughters of Skyrim.

Pretty much everyone just wanted the war to be over. The main army was gone and the Thalmor had no real power to do anything in Skyrim without Ulfric and his merry band of morons bringing it up. Why? Because Ulfric wanted attention, likely.

This war is about more than attention for Ulfric.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Obviously if he dies he can't be High King however if you're questioning his capability the I'd say that he absolutely could. There is a mod called Civil War Overhaul (CWO) that uses the old scripts that were supposed to be in the game originally but were scrapped. For example, Ulfric was supposed to fight in the Battle of Whiterun and does with this mod. This is proven when he is given completely new lines of dialogue that weren't heard in the original game. He also fights at the battle of Markarth (which again was supposed to be in the original game) and once again is given lines of Dialogue which were cut from the original game. It's a great mod and I suggest you all give it a try to get a taste of how the Civil War was supposed to be.

Cut dialogue and such are not actual content. I disregard that garbage.

They also cut the Battle of Markarth in which he fought in and said this to his soldiers "This is it men! It's time to make this city ours. The walls of Markarth may be high, but their age will have created weakness or secret entrances. find them! They'll have barricades set, destroy them quickly. Keep pressing forward. All that remains then is the exterior gate. Find a way through to open it and the city will be ours! Ready now! Everyone, with me! For the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim!" he will then rush with his men and take Markarth. Galmar will storm the keep and fight the Jarl, Ondolemar, The Jarl's Housecarl and a few random Imperials. The Silver Blood Jarl will then enter and say some pl*** to Jarl Igmund. Galmar will shut them up and Igmund will surrendur. Then Galmar will halt Ondolemar.
Galmar: Halt Elf! You're not going anywhere!
Ondolemar: I presume you're talking to me.
Galmar: On your Knees Elf!
Ondolemar:.....
Galmar: I said, On your Knees!
Ondolemar: Have your petty victory. Soon you will all be slaves.
*Galmar then procedes to cut off his head*
Galmar: Someone take that filth out of here!
Is that enough for you to spark your interests? Well that was ALL supposed to be in the original game but it got scrapped due to bugs and because Bethesda already had a set launch date.
Heres a link to the battle of Markarth: Skip to about 1:30

Again, using cut content and mods, even if those mods "bring back" stuff, they were cut, and thus, are not true content.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

This war is about more than attention for Ulfric.

You are right, it is about power and control, not freedom. Without Ulfric, the Thalmor would not have known about the ban on Talos being violated, as there would have been no one agitating about it, bringing them into it.

Without the lead, no play.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

This war is about more than attention for Ulfric.

You are right, it is about power and control, not freedom. Without Ulfric, the Thalmor would not have known about the ban on Talos being violated, as there would have been no one agitating about it, bringing them into it.

Without the lead, no play.

I'm pretty sure they would have and did. They still made open arrests about it however they didn't drag them off in the middle of the night and murder/torture them. Thats kind of what this whole war is about

Cause and Effect

You also have to understand that for a Nord to worship in fear and secret is to directly opposite to Nord code. Honor and Valor. I believe Ulfric thought he was genuinely doing what he thought was right. He spat in the Dominions face unlike The Imperials.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

This war is about more than attention for Ulfric.

You are right, it is about power and control, not freedom. Without Ulfric, the Thalmor would not have known about the ban on Talos being violated, as there would have been no one agitating about it, bringing them into it.

Without the lead, no play.

I'm pretty sure they would have and did. They still made open arrests about it however they didn't drag them off in the middle of the night and murder/torture them. Thats kind of what this whole war is about

Cause and Effect

No, it was because Ulfric revealed the stupidity of the Nords to the Thalmor and caused the Civil War. Without him, the Thalmor would have no reason to not believe the Empire, and thus, no civil war, as there would be no reason for the Nords to rebel.

Ulfric set the war up by using what was there to HIS advantage, not to free skyrim from anything. Ulfric was likely also being watched by the Thalmor as he is an uncooperative asset to them.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

You are right, it is about power and control, not freedom. Without Ulfric, the Thalmor would not have known about the ban on Talos being violated, as there would have been no one agitating about it, bringing them into it.

Without the lead, no play.

I'm pretty sure they would have and did. They still made open arrests about it however they didn't drag them off in the middle of the night and murder/torture them. Thats kind of what this whole war is about

Cause and Effect

No, it was because Ulfric revealed the stupidity of the Nords to the Thalmor and caused the Civil War. Without him, the Thalmor would have no reason to not believe the Empire, and thus, no civil war, as there would be no reason for the Nords to rebel.

Ulfric set the war up by using what was there to HIS advantage, not to free skyrim from anything.

I made an edit to this please read it
Why the fluff would the Thalmor take the word of their enemies for anything. The Thalmor were in Skyrim making arrests LEGALLY under the signing of the Brown Gold Concordant.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I'm pretty sure they would have and did. They still made open arrests about it however they didn't drag them off in the middle of the night and murder/torture them. Thats kind of what this whole war is about

Cause and Effect

No, it was because Ulfric revealed the stupidity of the Nords to the Thalmor and caused the Civil War. Without him, the Thalmor would have no reason to not believe the Empire, and thus, no civil war, as there would be no reason for the Nords to rebel.

Ulfric set the war up by using what was there to HIS advantage, not to free skyrim from anything.

I made an edit to this please read it
Why the fluff would the Thalmor take the word of their enemies for anything. The Thalmor were in Skyrim making arrests LEGALLY under the signing of the Brown Gold Concordant.

They were in Skyrim because of the Concordant AND the Markarth incident, which happened only two years AFTER the Great War. the same incident that ULFRIC was a part of. They were only there "legally" because of Ulfric and his boys harping about it.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Sovngarde doesn't work like that.

"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - Ysgramor, A Dream of Sovngarde

However Ulfric is also in Sovngarde saying this "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor." He basically says he did indeed fight for Skyrim but in the end the War was useless, because it waxed the power of Alduin.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

No, it was because Ulfric revealed the stupidity of the Nords to the Thalmor and caused the Civil War. Without him, the Thalmor would have no reason to not believe the Empire, and thus, no civil war, as there would be no reason for the Nords to rebel.

Ulfric set the war up by using what was there to HIS advantage, not to free skyrim from anything.

I made an edit to this please read it
Why the fluff would the Thalmor take the word of their enemies for anything. The Thalmor were in Skyrim making arrests LEGALLY under the signing of the Brown Gold Concordant.

They were in Skyrim because of the Concordant AND the Markarth incident, which happened only two years AFTER the Great War. the same incident that ULFRIC was a part of. They were only there "legally" because of Ulfric and his boys harping about it.

The White Gold concordant gave them the right to stamp out Talos Worship. they were already in Skyrim right after the Great War.
"I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces."
Strangers wearing familiar faces= The Thalmor

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

Let me ask you something if Ulfric only want's the throne then why is he in Sovngarde. If thats not enough why does he not admit to his misdoings in Sovngarde. If he truly was only waging this war for the throne why wouldn't he state his true intentions, I mean, he'd have nothing to lose he's dead. And why would a conniving, slippery, politician even be allowed into Sovngarde. Just please ask yourself that

Sovngarde doesn't work like that.

"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - Ysgramor, A Dream of Sovngarde

However Ulfric is also in Sovngarde saying this "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor." He basically says he did indeed fight for Skyrim but in the end the War was useless, because it waxed the power of Alduin.

Ulfric was probably not thinking like himself. At the end of the war for either side, Ulfric seems to be in for glory or drama.

• Imperial side: Ulfric wants the player to kill him, because it would make for a BETTER SONG! he does not accept death unless the Dragonborn kills him to make a song.
• Stormcloak side: He draws out Tullius's death and when Galmar berates him for it, he asks Galmar if he has a sense of a "dramatic moment".

Neither of which has anything to do with Skyrim's freed for fighting for skyrim.

 

[Jurgarik Greycloak]

I made an edit to this please read it
Why the fluff would the Thalmor take the word of their enemies for anything. The Thalmor were in Skyrim making arrests LEGALLY under the signing of the Brown Gold Concordant.

They were in Skyrim because of the Concordant AND the Markarth incident, which happened only two years AFTER the Great War. the same incident that ULFRIC was a part of. They were only there "legally" because of Ulfric and his boys harping about it.

The White Gold concordant gave them the right to stamp out Talos Worship. they were already in Skyrim right after the Great War.
"I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces."
Strangers wearing familiar faces= The Thalmor

Again, Markarth incident leads to them making arrests, as per the concordant. What part of "cause and effect" are YOU not getting?

Is it because you love Ulfric and anything that is a part of the real truth, you condemn as lies and slander because it hurts Ulfric's image?

Ulfric's "rebellion" started only because the Thalmor ere kidnapping people, not because of any "legal arrests" which would take time to do, so that was not a real problem.

 

[Mikulas Black-Blade]

Sovngarde doesn't work like that.

"Remember this always, son of the north - a Nord is judged not by the manner in which he lived, but the manner in which he died." - Ysgramor, A Dream of Sovngarde

However Ulfric is also in Sovngarde saying this "Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth - fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater - wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor." He basically says he did indeed fight for Skyrim but in the end the War was useless, because it waxed the power of Alduin.

Ulfric was probably not thinking like himself. At the end of the war for either side, Ulfric seems to be in for glory or drama.

• Imperial side: Ulfric wants the player to kill him, because it would make for a BETTER SONG! he does not accept death unless the Dragonborn kills him to make a song.
• Stormcloak side: He draws out Tullius's death and when Galmar berates him for it, he asks Galmar if he has a sense of a "dramatic moment".

Neither of which has anything to do with Skyrim's freed for fighting for skyrim.

He also Says
"Skyrim doesnt belong to me. But I belong to her"
Also, this was at the last battle of The War. You notice he didn't give a plops about drama in the rest of the campaign. I mean what Nord wouldn't want to be immortalized in song. That's the ultimate honor for a Nord. for a song to sing of their exploits of honor and valor, To Ulfric this is necessary. Just because he's poetic doesn't mean he doesn't want whats best for Skyrim